TSR's Pro-Europe Society

lol I knew it was from The Trap; but I was just using that particular segment for the speech

i suspected as much, its not really a video which is close to the message of Curtis' film.

I disagree with that assessment; well, insofar as all governments are corrupt to a certain level the EU is only as corrupt as any national government.



Really depends how you define legitimacy. Yes, if you're a backward nationalist, certainly; but I find that thinking rather abhorrent myself.



It is a mix of democracy and the representation of the member states which constitute it. That's largely the only way it will work. Yet if we were to make it more democratic, removing the privileges of the national governments within it, then your ilk would be the first to complain.

The EU is much more corrupt than the UK government. The EU have not had their accounts approved for 13 years because they are corrupt, they waste my money and your money.

it is illegitimate beacause it is undemocratic.

It is undemocratic because they will never let anything be voted on by the British or European people, or if they do they arrogantly ignore it (as in France, Holland and Ireland).

It it also has an "appointed" commission. You cannot vote them out, they do not listen to views of the people, they do what they like and they are the people that are "managing the day-to-day business of the European Union: implementing its policies, running its programmes and spending its funds." (http://europa.eu/institutions/inst/comm/index_en.htm).

The EU is monster, they won't allow the filming of protests against themselves, they deny free speech, they are the enemies of freedom.

I don't think they spend a great deal of my money, but yes, I'll agree - their accounting could be more transparent. However that doesn't mean they're more corrupt than the UK government.



So, pray tell, when did the UK become 'legitimate'?

1832 with the Reform Act?

1872 with secret ballots?

1928 with equal franchise for men and women?

1949 with the removal of double voting by university graduates?

The 1960s when the last vestiges of property qualification were finally abandoned in our electoral system?

Is it legitimate now, considering we have unelected officials, an unelected head of state and an unelected upper chamber of Parliament?

Please, tell me what level of democracy delegitimises a polity, because from where I'm standing the EU looks very democratic in comparison with us at some points.



That's absolute nonsense. There has only been one national referendum in British history (coincidentally voting that we remain in the European Community) - you cannot say a polity is delegitimised simply because a lack of referendum.

Moreover, ratification of treaties is a matter for the member states, not the EU: as such, there's only one set of parties denying referendums on treaty ratifications: Britain, and all the other countries in the same position as it.

Also the majority of British people no longer wish to be part of this "union" and yet we remain a member.



So a bit like the British government then? After all, Ministers of the Crown are appointed by Her Majesty the Queen, not elected.



They have no authority to do any of these things. You're a crackpot.

Britain is more democratic than the EU, although we have a monarchy and house of Lords, in practice they cannot overrule the democratic decisions.

Surely the No votes by France, Holland and Ireland on the Lisbon constitution/treaty show the will of these people, for it to then go ahead is a clear lack of democracy.

I am afraid your post has not in anyway changed my view on the EU, but i find it interesting that you (like many other pro-EU people) will become annoyed that anyone dare disagree with europe and you brand me a "crackpot", what have I said to lead you to this conclusion? You state that I have "no authority to do any of these things". What i have no right to exercise my right to free speech? to disagree with the EU? yeah your probably right, how dare I?!

But I can curious as to whether you really are happy with the EU, do you really think the EU is a legitimate thing, and is it good for the UK?

36/46 so 78%

Just as the people who make decisions in the EU are the Council and Parliament, led by the 'European Council' meetings - the members of which are all elected.



France and the Netherlands voted 'no' to the Constitutional Treaty, which was scrapped. Ireland voted no to Lisbon, and nobody knows quite what's going to happen to resolve that situation.

I personally don't think they should have been asked by referendum at all. Or, if there was, it should have been a referendum not of the member-states but of the whole EU.

Does it represent Britain's lack of democracy that the plans for Scottish devolution in the 1970s were scrapped despite it getting the support of over 50% of voters?



You don't have any authority; I was of course answering your point about the EU and said 'they', not 'you'. A fairly straightforward statement.

You are a crackpot if you believe the EU is going around suppressing your freedom of speech and stopping you from protesting.



Yes, I believe it is perfectly legitimate, democratic enough (although I'd like a more supranational approach, ending the veto powers of national governments) and a very good thing for the UK. Ultimately though, my judgement on it is not based foremost on how it benefits British people, but of how it benefits European people and the wider world.

But why have an unelected council at all? Why were people like Peter mandleson running parts of this, this is man who was forced to resign from the British government, and who would not have been voted in.

France and Holland both rejected the consitution, which is almost exactly the same as the lisbon treaty, yet the EU is bringing it back again. Ireland have
rejected the treaty - the only country to hold a public vote! This is the only country which actually allowed its people to decide. So in every EU country that asked its people it was rejected. Yet it continues.

The EU does restrict freedoms, they also do not like protests against them. For example when the lisbon treaty was signed, many members of the parliament protested, and held banners demanding a democracy, the EU security moved in saying, that "cannot be filmed" why not? Because they are by passing democracy and don't want you to know. We have unelected people making decisions and protests cannot be held or filmed! what is going on?

I fail to see how teh UK benefits from the EU in anyway. We pay £40million everyday into this corrupt and undemocratic union, (thats over £240 for every man, woman and child per year) and for this we have our democracy ignored and our culture removed?

How do we benefit?

France and Holland both rejected the consitution, which is almost exactly the same as the lisbon treaty, yet the EU is bringing it back again. Ireland have
rejected the treaty - the only country to hold a public vote! This is the only country which actually allowed its people to decide. So in every EU country that asked its people it was rejected. Yet it continues.

I fail to see how teh UK benefits from the EU in anyway. We pay £40million everyday into this corrupt and undemocratic union, (thats over £240 for every man, woman and child per year) and for this we have our democracy ignored and our culture removed?

Objective 1 is socialist, we are not here to spread the wealth.

The EU is unecessary, and the majority of British people want to leave it because of its aims with legal and political intergration.

I disagree to both previous posts, the Eu is NOT good for Britain, I am yet to see one advantage.

and the majority of British people want to leave it

I didn't make that point though: I would only defend the EU in being good for the whole of Europe.

Anyway, the obvious benefits of free trade are what keep us in it.



I don't think that's true by any manner of means.

so its a bad thing to help regions with a GDP per capita 75% below the European average?



statistics please.

Yes.

Why should help Europeans above Africans or Asians, or indeed anyone?

Stats:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/2092010/Britons-want-looser-ties-with-EU.html

"The Global Vision/ICM survey found that when British voters were asked about their ideal relationship with Europe, 41 per cent chose one based simply on trade and co-operation. Some 27 per cent wanted Britain to stay a full EU member while 26 per cent wanted to withdraw altogether.

If the "trade-only" option were offered in a referendum, 64 per cent said they would vote in favour. Asked what should happen if Britain sought to negotiate a looser relationship but other nations blocked the move, 57 per cent said the UK should leave the EU, while 33 per cent said it should stay in."

ANd it should be noted the a trade only option is available through the European Economic Area (EEA), of which Norway is a member whilst not being in the EU.

The majority want to leave, and an even greater majority want the right to have the opporunity to vote on it!