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which better for undergrad maths -'top' Oxf college or 'bottom' Cambridge one?

What are the actual differences between the oxford course and the cambridge course? I'm also still trying to decide between them (applying to either oxf or camb).

Reply 61

RichE

15

ShortRef

What are the actual differences between the oxford course and the cambridge course? I'm also still trying to decide between them (applying to either oxf or camb).

I deliberately didn't answer your post a few days ago because I thought it would receive responses from maths students (and others) at the two unis (and possibly elsewhere).

So (in light of no other posts) here is a response which I will try to keep fairly impartial (I will admit to knowing the Oxford system intimately but I know the Cambridge one fairly well also. I hope Cambridge students will correct me if any of this is out of date.)

(i) Firstly I think the two courses are similar enough that you could well be best off deciding for other reasons. Eg. the slightly different sizes of the cities, how hard it is to travel to the cities from your home, a preferred college, etc.

(ii) The content of the first years is remarkably similar. The number of lectures is much the same at both (192 in Cam, 205 in Ox). One difference is that the Cambridge course teaches the material in rather large courses (24 lectures) whilst the Oxford courses are mainly 16 (with some in blocks of 8 or fewer). I personally prefer the latter arrangement as it means you are learning most strands of pure or applied maths at any one point, rather than meeting it in a large chunk and not returning to it for a while. Also the Oxford lectures are spread over 2.5 terms and over just 2 in Cambridge; a downside at Oxford is that the course/exams finish later in the third term, whilst an upside is that there are no Saturday lectures.

(iii) There are again more similarities than differences in the arrangements for the second and third year options but it is undeniable that the Part III in Cambridge has substantially more options on offer than are available at Oxford; it is also certainly the case that the material in Part III goes beyond the fourth year at Oxford.

Whether this is a good idea or not is a genuinely arguable point. A smaller percentage of Cambridge students consequently go on to do the fourth year and there aren't classes associated with many of the Cambridge options (just lectures) whilst all lecture courses at Oxford have complementary classes. On the up side it is a genuinely unmatched array of lecture courses available.

(iv) The Part III arrangements are mainly possible in Cambridge because the responsibilities of a maths don in Cambridge would be heavier on the lecturing side and less so on the tutorial/supervision side. This means that Cambridge students are more commonly taught by graduates rather than tenured faculty. This needn't be a bad thing, in fact I would argue that a mix of older/younger tutors is a good thing - older tutors could be less empathic for students' difficulties in learning, but graduate tutors may change from term to term and so there could be less personal overview of your academic progress; experienced tutors would also have a greater feel for the bigger picture in maths.

(v) Finally, and only really by the fourth year, it would be becoming plain to you that the research interests in Oxford and Cambridge are a little different. What is available in the fourth year reflects more closely the interests of the different research groups whilst years 1-3 are something of a "canon" of mathematics packaged as best as possible on pedagogical grounds. So in Cambridge, having the theoretical physics department as part of DAMTP results in more options in that area; Oxford (which I know better) has strong research groups in model theory, topology, PDEs, SDEs and financial mathematics, industrial mathematics (OCIAM/OCCAM), mathematical biology, mathematical genetics, etc. But honestly if you have decided by the third year that the fourth year options don't contain enough options to your taste (an uncommon but occasional scenario) then students often go and do a one year masters with a particular flavour at the same or another university.

(vi) A final point worth mentioning are the (comparatively large) differences in the application processes, but I will only mention it as it doesn't quite answer your question.

I hope this helps. If you have a strong other reason to choose one uni over the other I would say go for it. If not I hope points (ii)-(v) help a little.

Reply 62

Hashshashin

13

Absolutely outstanding post from RichE!

Reply 63

DFranklin

18

RichE

(ii) The content of the first years is remarkably similar. The number of lectures is much the same at both (192 in Cam, 205 in Ox). One difference is that the Cambridge course teaches the material in rather large courses (24 lectures) whilst the Oxford courses are mainly 16 (with some in blocks of 8 or fewer). I personally prefer the latter arrangement as it means you are learning most strands of pure or applied maths at any one point, rather than meeting it in a large chunk and not returning to it for a while. Also the Oxford lectures are spread over 2.5 terms and over just 2 in Cambridge; a downside at Oxford is that the course/exams finish later in the third term, whilst an upside is that there are no Saturday lectures.

Just to comment that Cambridge does have 3rd term lectures, it's just that they cover material that is examined the subsequent year. The rationale is that people typically take a while to get 'comfortable' with new material - if you're literally learning stuff up to a week before the exams, it's unlikely you'll want to answer questions on it in the Tripos. (Those lectures are roughly the same now as when I did IA - it's just we had the exam the same year rather than the next one).

Whether this is a good idea or not is a genuinely arguable point. A smaller percentage of Cambridge students consequently go on to do the fourth year and there aren't classes associated with many of the Cambridge options (just lectures) whilst all lecture courses at Oxford have complementary classes. On the up side it is a genuinely unmatched array of lecture courses available.

As you will probably have noticed from previous posts, my experience of Cambridge (from 20 years ago) is that if you're not going to get a first (or high 2:1), you're probably going to find the courses very frustrating. There's often a feeling that the undergrad degree is really intended as preparation for Part III, and people who aren't in that category just have to make do as best they can.

What are your thoughts on how Oxford handles the 'average' mathmo? My feeling from students postings on TSR is that it's generally a more encouraging environment, but postings on TSR can be misleading (specifically, the Oxford student I had most dealings with kept going on about how much he was struggling and wasn't sure if he should be doing maths and then got a first, so...)

I hope this helps. If you have a strong other reason to choose one uni over the other I would say go for it. If not I hope points (ii)-(v) help a little.

Yes, that was a great post. Thanks. (Can't rep you for about 28 days - epsilon!)

Reply 64

refref

RichE

I deliberately didn't answer your post a few days ago because I thought it would receive responses from maths students (and others) at the two unis (and possibly elsewhere).

-----------------

I hope this helps. If you have a strong other reason to choose one uni over the other I would say go for it. If not I hope points (ii)-(v) help a little.

Thanks.

I've been trying to decide for quite a while. I think I may have decided on Oxford though, but I am still going to do step (2 and 3). When we went on the open days I preferred Oxford, though Cambridge had some sort of awesome feel that was clouded as we didnt have any time to see enough colleges (we only saw one, no tour or anything). I'm going to look at some more colleges tomorrow.

Hopefully I'll meet cambridge when I'm older though.

I hope I dont regret my decision :frown:

Reply 65

meatball893

11

RichE

...

Wow, thanks for that! I want to do a four-year course and then probably go into research if I can. Which of the two unis would you say is better for research in pure maths?

(I am leaning towards Oxford I think, to answer your (two week old) question)

Reply 66

henryt

17

meatball893

Wow, thanks for that! I want to do a four-year course and then probably go into research if I can. Which of the two unis would you say is better for research in pure maths?

(I am leaning towards Oxford I think, to answer your (two week old) question)

Ultimately, if you do get to research stage, you'll be looking to apply to the best university for your chosen specialism in 4 years time. This might come down to a couple of professors, and it's not uncommon for academics to move about, so you can't really choose now. And even so, at Postgrad level, you can apply to both. And it might be wise to experience university level maths before deciding you want to become a professor! Basically, choose your undergrad uni based on the undergrad course, choose your postgrad uni, if it gets that far, on the best researchers at the time. Doing it the otherway round would be completely daft.

Reply 67

meatball893

11

henryt

Ultimately, if you do get to research stage, you'll be looking to apply to the best university for your chosen specialism in 4 years time. This might come down to a couple of professors, and it's not uncommon for academics to move about, so you can't really choose now. And even so, at Postgrad level, you can apply to both. And it might be wise to experience university level maths before deciding you want to become a professor! Basically, choose your undergrad uni based on the undergrad course, choose your postgrad uni, if it gets that far, on the best researchers at the time. Doing it the otherway round would be completely daft.

Ah, sorry, I didn't ask what I meant to ask. This is what I actually meant:

Which uni's fourth year would give the best preparation for research in pure maths?

Reply 68

henryt

17

meatball893

Ah, sorry, I didn't ask what I meant to ask. This is what I actually meant:

Which uni's fourth year would give the best preparation for research in pure maths?

I think from reading RichE's post, it should be reasonably clear. Any good 4 year undergraduate degree from a good university should prepare students adequately for research. Both Oxford and Cambridge will provide good preparation in any field of Maths, Pure, Applied or Applicable, even if there are very specific research strengths at each institution (Pure Maths, however, is far too broad to say 'X is better than Y at Pure research', and as I pointed out above, knowing which is better now is not especially useful). Stop worrying about the small differences, and choose one something more solid and less liable to change!

which better for undergrad maths -'top' Oxf college or 'bottom' Cambridge one?

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