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What is KCL good for?

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Reply 80
"To be considered you will need a strong degree / predicted degree (min 2.1) from a top tier university (e.g. Oxford, Cambridge, Warwick, UCL, Imperial, etc)"

legit
Waterfront bar, King's College
King's College London
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Reply 81
Original post by LutherVan
For international students entry requirement, LSE is on par with Oxbridge and normally requires five 5 APs, while UCL requires three 5s.



If we are going to get technical, Oxford only requires 3 APs with grades of 5. I don't think international admission requirements are a good basis for ranking.
Reply 82
http://www.ukrecruiter.co.uk/recnet/rn51to60.htm
Who's in charge?: Tom Hughes, a Cambridge graduate, set the site up with a friend whilst he was a Management Consultant in Strategy and IT. Initially they targeted Oxford, Cambridge and LSE students and later expanded the site to include all the premier universities in the UK.


http://www.cwjobs.co.uk/JobSeeking/Software-Developers-Senior-Analyst-Programmers---C%23-SQL-Server_job49170877
Software developers are required by our prestigious global research Headghe fund client of note. We are looking for exceptionally bright graduates with red brick university backgrounds from say the likes of Imperial, Oxford, Cambridge etc.


http://infoscholarship.net/scholarship/african-women/page/3
Tenable: At any university or tertiary institution abroad, but preferably Oxford, Cambridge, Edinburgh, St Andrews or Trinity College (Dublin).
Reply 83
Original post by adam0311
If we are going to get technical, Oxford only requires 3 APs with grades of 5. I don't think international admission requirements are a good basis for ranking.


I used it only as one of the indicators, not a standalone indicator.

Yeah, for UK unis, they can hardly be a good basis because some universities are struggling for foreign students and will lower standards to get them in.

But even for home students where it is strictly on merit, LSE requests harder grades than UCL and gets better quality students.

Oxbridge >>>> LSE/Imp >> UCL > Warwick/KCL/Edin/Bris/Notts/Durham/St Andrews > Manc/York/Bath/Sheff/Birmingham/Southampton/Leeds and maybe or maybe not another ">" before Other redbricks.
Reply 84
Original post by LutherVan
I used it only as one of the indicators, not a standalone indicator.

Yeah, for UK unis, they can hardly be a good basis because some universities are struggling for foreign students and will lower standards to get them in.

But even for home students where it is strictly on merit, LSE requests harder grades than UCL and gets better quality students.

Oxbridge >>>> LSE/Imp >> UCL > Warwick/KCL/Edin/Bris/Notts/Durham/St Andrews > Manc/York/Bath/Sheff/Birmingham/Southampton/Leeds and maybe or maybe not another ">" before Other redbricks.


Yes, I agree with that list. I would definitely just group LSE and Imperial together. If your fourth group is supposed to be in order, the only thing I would change is putting Durham up there with KCL. Probably Warwick and Durham tied at the front, then KCL, Edin, St. A, Notts, Bristol.
Reply 85
Original post by adam0311
Yes, I agree with that list. I would definitely just group LSE and Imperial together. If your fourth group is supposed to be in order, the only thing I would change is putting Durham up there with KCL. Probably Warwick and Durham tied at the front, then KCL, Edin, St. A, Notts, Bristol.


I think Durham is a top university but apart from requiring high grades, I don't see any other away it can compete with KCL and Edinburgh.

KCL and Edinburgh require just slightly lower grades but have a far huger reputation internationally. They have far better alumni and endowment, which is even better than UCL's in most areas.

More so KCL and Edinburgh obtain more funds for research than Durham.

To boost their profile Edinburgh is the Cambridge of Scotland and KCL is part of the Golden Triangle and better for the elite IB, Consulting, Medicine and Law career entry opportunities.

So I will put them ahead of Durham in regards to prestige.
(edited 13 years ago)
Reply 86
Original post by LutherVan
I think Durham is a top university but apart from requiring high grades, I don't see any other away it can compete with KCL and Edinburgh.

KCL and Edinburgh require just slightly lower grades but have a far huger reputation internationally. They have far better alumni and endowment, which is even better than UCL's in most areas.

More so KCL and Edinburgh obtain more funds for research than Durham.

To boost their profile Edinburgh is the Cambridge of Scotland and KCL is part of the Golden Triangle and better for the elite IB, Consulting, Medicine and Law career entry opportunities.

So I will put them ahead of Durham in regards to prestige.


I think that Edinburgh could probably be ahead, but not using your method based off employment prospects in the 4 unique industries. More so because of its amazing list of alumni.

If we are going to use your method of ranking by employment opportunities in IB, consulting, Medicine and law only....then KCL will beat out Durham in IB and Consulting. That's just because Durham lags behind in business related studies. However, medicine isn't a great indicator for employment prospects, since graduate prospects from all med unis is between 98 and 100. With regards to law, Durham is ahead of KCL. Has a higher RAE, consistently ranked ahead of KCL in law for years (not counting guardian), etc. As far as uni as a whole, Durham is in the top ten for subjects 85% of the time while KCL is 59% of the time. Durham has the 5th most appearances in the top 10 behind Oxbridge, LSE, and Imperial.
(edited 13 years ago)
Reply 87
Original post by adam0311
I think that Edinburgh could probably be ahead, but not using your method based off employment prospects in the 4 unique industries. More so because of its amazing list of alumni.

If we are going to use your method of ranking by employment opportunities in IB, consulting, Medicine and law only....then KCL will beat out Durham in IB and Consulting. That's just because Durham lags behind in business related studies. However, medicine isn't a great indicator for employment prospects, since graduate prospects from all med unis is between 98 and 100. With regards to law, Durham is ahead of KCL. Has a higher RAE, consistently ranked ahead of KCL in law for years (not counting guardian), etc. As far as uni as a whole, Durham is in the top ten for subjects 85% of the time while KCL is 59% of the time. Durham has the 5th most appearances in the top 10 behind Oxbridge, LSE, and Imperial.


KCL even has a worse profile in business related studies than Durham. KCL has only ONE undergrad degree in business. Durham has a whole business school, and a pretty good one at that. So I think it is more of the profile why IBs and Consulting prefer it.

Yes, maybe Medicine is more a level playing field but KCL has a huge presence in Health research that might just give it an edge. The Golden Triangle definitely are the top in prestige in health-related studies hence the link on Sagamite's thread that shows a job advert asking for only graduates from the university to apply for a health-focused job. KCL even has a leading Healthcare business (King's Health Partners) spurred from its research and hosts six Medical Research Councils (the highest by any UK uni) which are centres for medical research excellence.

In regards to law, it is general acceptance that Oxford, Cambridge, LSE, KCL and UCL are top 5 in most people's list. And their law alumni reflects this. KCL producing so much Presidents, Justices and blue chip General Counsels, and being a block away from the top courts and firms will always be an advantage, more than most rankings can give.

Not that I am disputing the rankings, but sometimes things just stand the way they are irrespective of rankings. That is what is normally ignored on TSR.

For example, Yale can be ranked whatever in any ranking, it is still seen as the rival of Harvard and above universities like Berkeley, Columbia, Chicago etc.
(edited 13 years ago)
Reply 88
Original post by LutherVan
It is normal to see snobbish job adverts or events where only the top 4 (Oxbridge, LSE, Imp) are invited to apply or attend:

http://www.thegatewayonline.com/article/238


http://www2.lse.ac.uk/businessAndConsultancy/informationForEmployers/CareerEvents/Fairs/SEAsiaCareersFairs/AsiaFairsbookingform.aspx


http://www.careers.ox.ac.uk/whats-on/careers-fairs/careers-fairs-outside-oxford0/berlin-graduate-recruitment-fair0/


You only see UCL being mentioned in the same breath if they are mentioning the G5, which just points to the fact that UCL is the 5th and the weakest.

One will hardly ever see any event/job that groups UCL with Oxbridge and excludes Imp or LSE if these 2 also offer courses in the field.

Never Oxbridge, UCL and X only.

Even when UCL is mentioned, it is very usual to include other top unis like Warwick, Edinburgh, Bristol, KCL etc.

It is one of the following:

1) Oxbridge only
2) Oxbridge, LSE & Imperial only
3) Oxbridge and Top 4 in London only
4) Oxbridge, LSE, Imperial and a list of top UK universities like UCL, Warwick, KCL, St Andrews, Durham etc only
5) Oxbridge, LSE, Imperial & UCL (and this is only in the newspaper articles, not for employer or corporate event targeting, so it is just theoretical)

In the real world outside TSR, UCL is grouped with some of the other top universities in regards to prestige for jobs. The top 4 is exclusive and out of UCL's realms.

http://www.totaljobs.com/JobSearch/JobDetails.aspx?JobId=49061059


http://www.jobisjob.co.uk/surrey-england/monarch-recruitment-limited/graduate-computer-science-physics-maths-london/job-offer-sunfrj6wnzqzh7xdxgp6imo3le


http://www.highfliers.co.uk/vacancies/london/


http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-141689.160.html#msg6774001


Everything you just said is complete nonsense. I would rebut it, but it would be tiresome and pointless to re-write everything I have written about 10 times already. Leave it at that; if people want to read the argument, they can decide for themselves.
Reply 89
Original post by INTJ
Everything you just said is complete nonsense. I would rebut it, but it would be tiresome and pointless to re-write everything I have written about 10 times already. Leave it at that; if people want to read the argument, they can decide for themselves.


What I would have hoped was that you will show examples of how UCL graduates have been given such privilege with Oxbridge like LSE and Imp has, to show employers in the real world treat it as one of the superior 4.

Anyway, I am happy to leave it at that. No hard feelings, mate.
Reply 90
Original post by llbros545
Thanks! War Studies is definitely related to my area of interest, International Relations! Hopefully, I would be able to read it with History.


Hey, I'm aware that this thread has turned into a KCL - UCL - LSE and what not, argument, but I'm also hoping to study IR and was also considering KCL.

So I'm just wondering if you've applied yet and if so what were your choices? Cheers :biggrin:
Reply 91
Original post by INTJ
Everything you just said is complete nonsense. I would rebut it, but it would be tiresome and pointless to re-write everything I have written about 10 times already. Leave it at that; if people want to read the argument, they can decide for themselves.


I just got a look at Vault Guide to the Top 25 Consulting Firms, 2010 European Edition report which is produce by Vault, the most highly regarded website for professional services employment (IB, Consulting and Law). The report list firms by their prestige in the Consulting industry and profiles them. In the profile, there is a section that says "Getting Hired", which is basically what candidates have to do, and be, to get hired by the profiled prestigious firm. Some firms give an insight on the universities they see as elite and frequent for recruitment.

Here is a list of firms that stated their UK university preferance and focus for elite talent:

OC&C Strategy: Oxford and Cambridge
ZS Associates: Oxford and Cambridge
Candesic: Oxford and Cambridge
Roland Berger: Cambridge, Oxford and LSE
Monitor Group: Cambridge, Oxford and LSE
Capgemini: Oxford, Cambridge and LSE
NERA Economic Consulting: Oxford, Cambridge and LSE
Simon-Kucher & Partners: Oxford, Cambridge, LSE and Imperial
Oliver Wyman: Oxford, Cambridge, LSE, Imperial and Warwick
Bain & Company: Oxford, Cambridge and LSE
Diamond Management & Technology Consultantss: Oxford, Cambridge, LSE, Imperial and Bristol
Detica: Oxford, Cambridge, Durham, Imperial and York
Watson Wyatt: Oxford, Cambridge, St. Andrews and the London colleges

All other firms on the list did not specify what universities they target.

The list just backs my argument that LSE is the only university with the prestige next to Oxbridge and is the third most respected university in the real world that matters, not TSR, and almost matches the prestige groupings I listed in post #79.

It is one of the following:

1) Oxbridge only
2) Oxbridge, LSE only
3) Oxbridge, LSE & Imperial only
4) Oxbridge and Top 4 in London only
5) Oxbridge, LSE, Imperial and a list of top UK universities like UCL, Warwick, KCL, St Andrews, Durham etc only
6) Oxbridge, LSE, Imperial & UCL (and this is only in the newspaper articles, not for employer or corporate event targeting, so it is just theoretical)
(edited 10 years ago)
Reply 92
Original post by LutherVan
I just got a look at Vault Guide to the Top 25 Consulting Firms, 2010 European Edition report which is produce by Vault, the most highly regarded website for professional services employment (IB, Consulting and Law). The report list firms by their prestige in the Consulting industry and profiles them. In the profile, there is a section that says "Getting Hired", which is basically what candidates have to do, and be, to get hired by the profiled prestigious firm. Some firms give an insight on the universities they see as elite and frequent for recruitment.

Here is a list of firms that stated their UK university preferance and focus for elite talent:

OC&C Strategy: Oxford and Cambridge
ZS Associates: Oxford and Cambridge
Candesic: Oxford and Cambridge
Roland Berger: Cambridge, Oxford and LSE
Monitor Group: Cambridge, Oxford and LSE
Capgemini: Oxford, Cambridge and LSE
NERA Economic Consulting: Oxford, Cambridge and LSE
Simon-Kucher & Partners: Oxford, Cambridge, LSE and Imperial
Oliver Wyman: Oxford, Cambridge, LSE, Imperial and Warwick
Bain & Company: Oxford, Cambridge, LSE and Warwick
Diamond Management & Technology Consultantss: Oxford, Cambridge, LSE, Imperial and Bristol
Detica: Oxford, Cambridge, Durham, Imperial and York
Watson Wyatt: Oxford, Cambridge, St. Andrews and the London colleges

All other firms on the list did not specify what universities they target.

The list just backs my argument that LSE is the only university with the prestige next to Oxbridge and is the third most respected university in the real world that matters, not TSR, and almost matches the prestige groupings I listed in post #79.

It is one of the following:

1) Oxbridge only
2) Oxbridge, LSE & Imperial only
3) Oxbridge and Top 4 in London only
4) Oxbridge, LSE, Imperial and a list of top UK universities like UCL, Warwick, KCL, St Andrews, Durham etc only
5) Oxbridge, LSE, Imperial & UCL (and this is only in the newspaper articles, not for employer or corporate event targeting, so it is just theoretical)


I do NOT believe that is the case for Law at all. The source is highly questionable if, for law, UCL is not here there. For accounting, I can definitely see why oxbridge and LSE would be favoured, but UCL is ALWAYS regarded higher for law than the LSE. I actually spoke with someone about this, but cannot be bothered to compile all the sources again. Look further into it; I agree about the accounting, but look up law. UCL is definitely more favourable than KCL and Warwick for law, and almost always more favourable than the LSE for it.
Reply 93
Original post by INTJ
I do NOT believe that is the case for Law at all. The source is highly questionable if, for law, UCL is not here there. For accounting, I can definitely see why oxbridge and LSE would be favoured, but UCL is ALWAYS regarded higher for law than the LSE. I actually spoke with someone about this, but cannot be bothered to compile all the sources again. Look further into it; I agree about the accounting, but look up law. UCL is definitely more favourable than KCL and Warwick for law, and almost always more favourable than the LSE for it.


No, it is not for law. As the title says, it is for "Consulting" which is a career that is almost indiscriminate against degree type but is seeking people with high natural aptitude and innate intelligence, hence the Oxbridge and LSE preference.

If it was law, obviously UCL would be there as it is one of the Top 5. Whether it is more prestigious than LSE for law, I doubt. I think your issue (and most others on TSR) is that you focus too much on league tables you have seen. In the real world, as much as league tables have some relevance, it is so miniscule when compared to historical reputation, that is the evidence I have been showing you by posting the quotes. Despite LSE, KCL, Edinburgh, Leeds, Liverpool, Glasgow and Manchester's underachievement in league tables, they are far better regarded by those that matter than any league table suggests.

Oxbridge rule in Law, it will be a toss up between LSE, KCL and UCL for 3rd.
(edited 13 years ago)
Reply 94
Original post by LutherVan
No, it is not for law. As the title says, it is for "Consulting" which is a career that is almost indiscriminate against degree type but is seeking people with high natural aptitude and innate intelligence, hence the Oxbridge and LSE preference.

If it was law, obviously UCL would be there as it is one of the Top 5. Whether it is more prestigious than LSE for law, I doubt. I think your issue (and most others on TSR) is that you focus too much on league tables you have seen. In the real world, as much as league tables have some relevance, it is so miniscule when compared to historical reputation, that is the evidence I have been showing you by posting the quotes. Despite LSE, KCL, Edinburgh and Manchester's underachievement in league tables, they are far better regarded by those that matter than any league table suggests.

Oxbridge rule in Law, it will be a toss up between LSE, KCL and UCL for 3rd.

Fair enough for law, but overall, I'll quote what 'Lesbionic' wrote in another thread:

King's College London is probably an average university at most for all the 'other subjects' such as History, classics, MML etc. But for Law and medicine, it's really in another league to the rest of the university.


Plus, for the two flagship courses mentioned above, the entry standards aren't even that high
(edited 13 years ago)
Reply 95
Original post by Focus08
Fair enough for law, but overall, I'll quote what 'Lesbionic' wrote in another thread:

Plus, for the two flagship courses mentioned above, the entry standards aren't even that high


The comment by lesbionic is the kind of childish ignorance that is confidently delivered frequently seen on TSR.

KCL's other subjects bar Medicine and Law are average? So they are in the class of the Plymouth, Bradford, Brunel etc?

So King's college's War Studies, Music, Classics, Philosophy, Dentistry, Biomedical sciences etc are "average"?

How was that judged? Because you both saw a league table (like the Guardian)? That is just typical of the kids on TSR. That is why INTJ also thought UCL is better than LSE and is virtually in the same class as Oxford.

So you think it is being great only in Medicine and Law, but "average" by UK standards, not even world, in all other subjects that makes it one of the top ranked universities internationally frequently beating the likes of Brown, Lund, NUS, Tokyo, Toronto, Berkeley, UCLA, Virginia, TC Dublin, Dartmouth? That is why it is regarded as one of the Golden Triangle? That is why it has one of the top 5 endowments in the UK? All those were achieved on the grounds of only their great Medicine and Law? Very mature arguments and thinking, isn't it?
(edited 13 years ago)
Reply 96
lol, hypocrisy much?

Why is the validity of a ranking decided on your terms? Just because the Strand Poly does **** in the Guardian (outside the top 25 and rightfully so) doesn't mean you can dismiss it and keep citing the even more flawed world ranking...

It ain't that great, now quit trolling



Original post by LutherVan
x
(edited 13 years ago)
Reply 97
Original post by INTJ
I do NOT believe that is the case for Law at all. The source is highly questionable if, for law, UCL is not here there. For accounting, I can definitely see why oxbridge and LSE would be favoured, but UCL is ALWAYS regarded higher for law than the LSE. I actually spoke with someone about this, but cannot be bothered to compile all the sources again. Look further into it; I agree about the accounting, but look up law. UCL is definitely more favourable than KCL and Warwick for law, and almost always more favourable than the LSE for it.


Agreed. UCL beats out Warwick and KCL. It especially beats out KCL. Warwick is a little closer.

Original post by LutherVan
No, it is not for law. As the title says, it is for "Consulting" which is a career that is almost indiscriminate against degree type but is seeking people with high natural aptitude and innate intelligence, hence the Oxbridge and LSE preference.

If it was law, obviously UCL would be there as it is one of the Top 5. Whether it is more prestigious than LSE for law, I doubt. I think your issue (and most others on TSR) is that you focus too much on league tables you have seen. In the real world, as much as league tables have some relevance, it is so miniscule when compared to historical reputation, that is the evidence I have been showing you by posting the quotes. Despite LSE, KCL, Edinburgh, Leeds, Liverpool, Glasgow and Manchester's underachievement in league tables, they are far better regarded by those that matter than any league table suggests.

Oxbridge rule in Law, it will be a toss up between LSE, KCL and UCL for 3rd.


KCL is not even close for 3rd in law--bottom half of the top 10. Durham, Warwick, UCL and LSE all beat out KCL.
Reply 98
I just checked the article headlesskings is referring to on Times Higher Education.


International scholars decry the 'madness' of King's

11 February 2010

By John Morgan

Protests warn that cuts will damage reputation and research standing. John Morgan reports

Planned cuts at King's College London have sparked an international outcry, with scholars warning that the institution risks "disastrous" damage to its reputation and the loss of crucial research.

King's is consulting on plans for 205 job cuts across 13 departments.

Proposals to make redundant two leading computational linguists, Shalom Lappin and Wilfried Meyer-Viol, and to abolish the UK's only chair in palaeography - the study of ancient scripts - have become rallying points for campaigners.

A Facebook group, "Save Palaeography at King's London", which includes a letter of protest by Jeffrey Hamburger, chair of the medieval studies committee at Harvard University, had attracted about 4,500 supporters by 8 February, while an online petition has more than 5,500 signatures.

In addition, academics have sent more than 20 letters to King's management protesting against the treatment of Professor Lappin and Dr Meyer-Viol, members of the department of philosophy, which was rated in the top three for its subject in the 2008 research assessment exercise.

One of the letters is signed by 335 international scholars, led by Thomas Wasow, chair of the department of linguistics at Stanford University. It warns: "Dismissing senior researchers held in such high esteem by their peers will be disastrous for King's College's international reputation ... We are aghast."

Steven Pinker, professor of psychology at Harvard, has written to underline the importance of Professor Lappin's research to computing technology.

In a letter to Keith Hoggart, vice-principal (arts and sciences) at King's, he says the importance of the field "cannot be overstated".

"To give the boot to a scholar like Lappin is an act of madness," he writes.

Helen Beebee, director of the British Philosophical Association, warns in a letter to Rick Trainor, principal of King's, that "few people are happy to work in an institution that treats its staff in this way", warning that other scholars may "seek employment elsewhere".

Academics have also warned that the loss of the palaeography chair, currently held by David Ganz, will have wide-ranging implications.

Daniel DiCenso, Gates scholar in the department of music at the University of Cambridge, said that the plan would leave "manuscript-rich England without a hub of palaeographic study, giving way to centres in the US and Canada".

Cuts continue to hit hard elsewhere in the sector. At the University of Leeds, talks on job cuts between management and the University and College Union broke down just 24 hours after union members voted to support industrial action if negotiations failed.

At Aberystwyth University, up to 70 jobs are to go through "restructuring" in the Institute of Biological, Environmental and Rural Sciences.

And the University of Portsmouth plans to close its course in property marketing, design and development as part of a review at its School of Environmental Design and Management.



http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storycode=410351

The calibre of the institutions of the academics commenting shows the people that take interest in King's and the underlying reputation I was stating here. Outside TSR, KCL is highly regarded and very well known internationally.

If the comments below the report is read, one will note the rep and prestige clearly allocated to KCL. One commentator said:

"The philosophy department at Kings is hugely successful. The 2008 research assessment exercise placed it in the top 3 philosophy departments in the UK. The department has about 200 undergraduate students and 100 graduate students. The AHRC has allocated the department 4 doctoral awards and 4 masters awards. This is the largest single allocation to any university except Oxford, and represents ten percent of the total allocated to UK universities. Currently there are 4 research fellows. Over the past 3 years the department has raised nearly £3 million of external funding for research. The department, in short, is incredibly successful, and any suggestions to the contrary are based on complete ignorance."

Another said:

"Over here in the U.S. we have long thought of Kings College as a prestigious and well respected academy. Sorry to hear the the old girl is "on the ropes" and headed for a downhill slide. Oh well, all good things must come to an end...especially when politicians are making the decisions."

Another story about KCL I saw was its attempt to raise $500m on top of its endowment. If they are successful in doing so, then they will just be one of the richest unis in UK. This was the point I was making earlier about how quality of alumni was very important.

Major campaign aims to put King’s among the fundraising elite

3 November 2010

By Rebecca Attwood

King’s College London today launched the largest fundraising campaign of any UK university bar Oxbridge.

The institution is aiming to raise £500 million by 2015 in a campaign fronted by Sir John Major, the former prime minister.

The drive comes within weeks of the government’s announcement that it will make cuts of 40 per cent to the higher education teaching and student-support budget.

Rick Trainor, principal of King’s, said the retrenchment meant that universities must make greater efforts to raise funds through philanthropy.

“In the current economic climate, it is vital that universities step up their fundraising efforts to ensure we remain at the forefront of groundbreaking research,” he said.

The campaign will focus on the university’s efforts to tackle global challenges and is backed by alumni including Archbishop Desmond Tutu.

“We are delighted that we are supported by a wide range of high-profile individuals and alumni. We hope that this campaign will inspire people to hope for a better world and demonstrate what role universities can play in creating it,” Professor Trainor said.

Last week, the University of Oxford revealed that its international fundraising campaign had reached the milestone of £1 billion in donations, despite the global financial crisis. The University of Cambridge’s equivalent drive reached the same figure in June, making it the first higher education institution outside the US to raise £1 billion.


http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storycode=414098
(edited 13 years ago)
Reply 99
It's fun to watch self-delusion on the sidelines :awesome:


brb, Imma get the popcorn, don't continue the show without me :jerry:

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