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PGCE with a reprimand.
I started another thread on this board asking about chances of getting on a PGCE at Oxbridge. What I forgot to mention, as I forgot about it, as it doesn't seem a part of my life, is that I have a police reprimand for theft from when I was 15 (21 now).
From reading other threads, articles and information, it seems that my Oxbridge dreams are dashed by this act of foolishness. I can make excuses all day, but in reality there are none, I committed the crime and this is the time.
What I would like to know, though, is if ANY PGCE chances remain. Some people have said that they have 'a friend' who got on with a caution or reprimand but I've never seen a real one. Those asking a similar question to this one never come back to say how they got on (I will here, if anybody is interested). Is there anybody out there who has done it? Or knows the ins and outs of the system and could offer advice?
Aside from the reprimand, I think I am a strong applicant - 1st class degree, 6 weeks continous school experience, rugby coaching.
As last time, any response is welcomed (aside from pure abuse). I can take it if you confirm my worst suspicions, but I hope you pleasantly surprise me.
tommytenmen
From reading other threads, articles and information, it seems that my Oxbridge dreams are dashed by this act of foolishness. I can make excuses all day, but in reality there are none, I committed the crime and this is the time.
What I would like to know, though, is if ANY PGCE chances remain. Some people have said that they have 'a friend' who got on with a caution or reprimand but I've never seen a real one. Those asking a similar question to this one never come back to say how they got on (I will here, if anybody is interested). Is there anybody out there who has done it? Or knows the ins and outs of the system and could offer advice?
Aside from the reprimand, I think I am a strong applicant - 1st class degree, 6 weeks continous school experience, rugby coaching.
As last time, any response is welcomed (aside from pure abuse). I can take it if you confirm my worst suspicions, but I hope you pleasantly surprise me.
tommytenmen
Scroll to see replies
Original post by tommytenmen
I started another thread on this board asking about chances of getting on a PGCE at Oxbridge. What I forgot to mention, as I forgot about it, as it doesn't seem a part of my life, is that I have a police reprimand for theft from when I was 15 (21 now).
From reading other threads, articles and information, it seems that my Oxbridge dreams are dashed by this act of foolishness. I can make excuses all day, but in reality there are none, I committed the crime and this is the time.
What I would like to know, though, is if ANY PGCE chances remain. Some people have said that they have 'a friend' who got on with a caution or reprimand but I've never seen a real one. Those asking a similar question to this one never come back to say how they got on (I will here, if anybody is interested). Is there anybody out there who has done it? Or knows the ins and outs of the system and could offer advice?
Aside from the reprimand, I think I am a strong applicant - 1st class degree, 6 weeks continous school experience, rugby coaching. [...]
From reading other threads, articles and information, it seems that my Oxbridge dreams are dashed by this act of foolishness. I can make excuses all day, but in reality there are none, I committed the crime and this is the time.
What I would like to know, though, is if ANY PGCE chances remain. Some people have said that they have 'a friend' who got on with a caution or reprimand but I've never seen a real one. Those asking a similar question to this one never come back to say how they got on (I will here, if anybody is interested). Is there anybody out there who has done it? Or knows the ins and outs of the system and could offer advice?
Aside from the reprimand, I think I am a strong applicant - 1st class degree, 6 weeks continous school experience, rugby coaching. [...]
You need to think positively. You will lucky to receive a police reprimand; if you were any older you would have been sent straight to court and teaching might be completely out of bounds for you. In this sense, I would not dwell on it. There is nothing you can do about it now.
So far as teaching is concerned, I think you need to realise that getting onto a PGCE course is only the first step. If you qualified you might find, especially for other types of offences, that most schools will not touch you. Theft is not one of these offences and you were not actually convicted so it should be less of an issue.
Having said all that, I am unsure whether or not your reprimand will actually show up on an enhanced CRB. I have a feeling that they are removed after a certain time, in the same way you do not have to declare spent convictions eventually, but what I do know is that the Court of Appeal decided that things should be kept on the national police record until the person is 100 and that was in 2009.
I think you are just going to have to take the risk and apply. I would not mention to avoid putting people off. But if it does show up on your CRB then it will be addressed in every interview you have.
Original post by evantej
You need to think positively. You will lucky to receive a police reprimand; if you were any older you would have been sent straight to court and teaching might be completely out of bounds for you. In this sense, I would not dwell on it. There is nothing you can do about it now.
So far as teaching is concerned, I think you need to realise that getting onto a PGCE course is only the first step. If you qualified you might find, especially for other types of offences, that most schools will not touch you. Theft is not one of these offences and you were not actually convicted so it should be less of an issue.
Having said all that, I am unsure whether or not your reprimand will actually show up on an enhanced CRB. I have a feeling that they are removed after a certain time, in the same way you do not have to declare spent convictions eventually, but what I do know is that the Court of Appeal decided that things should be kept on the national police record until the person is 100 and that was in 2009.
I think you are just going to have to take the risk and apply. I would not mention to avoid putting people off. But if it does show up on your CRB then it will be addressed in every interview you have.
So far as teaching is concerned, I think you need to realise that getting onto a PGCE course is only the first step. If you qualified you might find, especially for other types of offences, that most schools will not touch you. Theft is not one of these offences and you were not actually convicted so it should be less of an issue.
Having said all that, I am unsure whether or not your reprimand will actually show up on an enhanced CRB. I have a feeling that they are removed after a certain time, in the same way you do not have to declare spent convictions eventually, but what I do know is that the Court of Appeal decided that things should be kept on the national police record until the person is 100 and that was in 2009.
I think you are just going to have to take the risk and apply. I would not mention to avoid putting people off. But if it does show up on your CRB then it will be addressed in every interview you have.
Regardless of its effect, it WILL show up in every CRB check and must be mentioned on every application form. Spent offences do not apply to enhanced checks and failing to mention this will be deemed to be dishonest and your place will be withdrawn or job offer withdrawn.
Clearly that was a verbal warning from security or the police then and not a reprimand or final warning.
Original post by sam.hunton
Regardless of its effect, it WILL show up in every CRB check and must be mentioned on every application form. Spent offences do not apply to enhanced checks and failing to mention this will be deemed to be dishonest and your place will be withdrawn or job offer withdrawn.
Teaching jobs are exempt from the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974. This means people with convictions have to declare their offences, whether spent or not (some convictions never become spent). But youth justice is dealt with very differently to adult justice and the issue being raised by the OP is whether or not his reprimand will actually show up on his enhanced CRB.
In this sense, his 'dishonesty' is completely irrelevant. If an employer asks someone with a spent conviction whether they have a criminal record the employee is allowed to say no even though it is untrue. You can say that is dishonest, but the reality is - and this was why the act was set up - the person is leaving themselves open to discrimination if they do declare things. What the employee has done in this case is perfectly legal.
So far as youth justice is concerned, the period of time that someone has to declare a conviction when they are under 18 is halved (becomes two and a half years for a basic conviction instead of five). But the OP is not declaring a conviction. He was never convicted of a crime. He received a first warning. Of course, someone who received a conviction as an under 18 would still have to declare this to become a teacher, but the OP never received a conviction in the first place.
It is up to him whether he wants to disclose it. I am almost certain - and Ham22 proves this to some extent - that his reprimand will not be listed on his CRB. If he did not declare it and it did turn up on his CRB then he could quite reasonably defend himself on the basis that he did not know whether it would appear and did not want to leave himself open to discrimination. The PGCE provider would have to be very careful about the reasons for rejecting him otherwise they would leave themselves open to allegations of discrimination. This was why I emphasised the fact that teaching is a two-stage process. Getting onto the PGCE is only the first step; if his reprimand was listed and he got onto a PGCE then he still might struggle to find a job because schools take a different view.
I agree with your point about a place or job being withdrawn, but the OP's situation is not the same as what you describe so it is inappropriate conclusion to draw.
I think depending on the subject he wants to study, lots of PGCE providers will use any excuse to reject people to make their lives easier (i.e. to cut down on the number of applicants) so he is right to be wary of disclosing it.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by sam.hunton
Clearly that was a verbal warning from security or the police then and not a reprimand or final warning.
As I said in my post above, youth offending is treated very differently to adult offending because the ideology behind it is to prevent imprisonment in the first place, rather than just reducing re-offending.
Any reprimand or final warning given to an under 18 is a legal document that requires them having enough evidence to convict the person (i.e. if they were over 18 then they would not think twice about attempting to prosecute the person). There is no such thing as a 'verbal warning'. Either the police have enough evidence to convict you or they do not. The point is that the police choose not to convict under 18s for the reason above. They would rather refer them to specialist Youth Offending Teams. There are of course some cases where the police cannot do this. I have worked in a former juvenile/youth offender's institute where there were under 18s serving life sentences.
Thanks to the Court of Appeal (as mentioned above), a reprimand or final warning is kept on the police system until you are 100 years old. But it does not constitute a criminal record and does not have to be disclosed as such - even with enhanced CRBs.
I hope this clears things up.
Original post by sam.hunton
Clearly that was a verbal warning from security or the police then and not a reprimand or final warning.
I was arrested and read my rights. I've actually no idea what the title for what i received was.
Original post by evantej
As I said in my post above, youth offending is treated very differently to adult offending because the ideology behind it is to prevent imprisonment in the first place, rather than just reducing re-offending.
Any reprimand or final warning given to an under 18 is a legal document that requires them having enough evidence to convict the person (i.e. if they were over 18 then they would not think twice about attempting to prosecute the person). There is no such thing as a 'verbal warning'. Either the police have enough evidence to convict you or they do not. The point is that the police choose not to convict under 18s for the reason above. They would rather refer them to specialist Youth Offending Teams. There are of course some cases where the police cannot do this. I have worked in a former juvenile/youth offender's institute where there were under 18s serving life sentences.
Thanks to the Court of Appeal (as mentioned above), a reprimand or final warning is kept on the police system until you are 100 years old. But it does not constitute a criminal record and does not have to be disclosed as such - even with enhanced CRBs.
I hope this clears things up.
Any reprimand or final warning given to an under 18 is a legal document that requires them having enough evidence to convict the person (i.e. if they were over 18 then they would not think twice about attempting to prosecute the person). There is no such thing as a 'verbal warning'. Either the police have enough evidence to convict you or they do not. The point is that the police choose not to convict under 18s for the reason above. They would rather refer them to specialist Youth Offending Teams. There are of course some cases where the police cannot do this. I have worked in a former juvenile/youth offender's institute where there were under 18s serving life sentences.
Thanks to the Court of Appeal (as mentioned above), a reprimand or final warning is kept on the police system until you are 100 years old. But it does not constitute a criminal record and does not have to be disclosed as such - even with enhanced CRBs.
I hope this clears things up.
This is mostly correct. Enhanced CRB checks will (ie ought to, subject to errors and inaccuracies) show up reprimands and final warnings to juveniles. These should be disclosed by teaching applicants.
It is not enough that the police have evidence for a conviction in order to administer a reprimand, final warning or caution. The recipient must positively admit their guilt. If they don't the police must either prosecute or take no further action.
The only oddity, which I am not altogether sure about in relation to teachers, is the Penalty Notice for Disorder. Intending lawyers don't have to disclose, because failing to challenge a PND is not an admission of guilt.
Original post by evantej
As I said in my post above, youth offending is treated very differently to adult offending because the ideology behind it is to prevent imprisonment in the first place, rather than just reducing re-offending.
Any reprimand or final warning given to an under 18 is a legal document that requires them having enough evidence to convict the person (i.e. if they were over 18 then they would not think twice about attempting to prosecute the person). There is no such thing as a 'verbal warning'. Either the police have enough evidence to convict you or they do not. The point is that the police choose not to convict under 18s for the reason above. They would rather refer them to specialist Youth Offending Teams. There are of course some cases where the police cannot do this. I have worked in a former juvenile/youth offender's institute where there were under 18s serving life sentences.
Thanks to the Court of Appeal (as mentioned above), a reprimand or final warning is kept on the police system until you are 100 years old. But it does not constitute a criminal record and does not have to be disclosed as such - even with enhanced CRBs.
I hope this clears things up.
Any reprimand or final warning given to an under 18 is a legal document that requires them having enough evidence to convict the person (i.e. if they were over 18 then they would not think twice about attempting to prosecute the person). There is no such thing as a 'verbal warning'. Either the police have enough evidence to convict you or they do not. The point is that the police choose not to convict under 18s for the reason above. They would rather refer them to specialist Youth Offending Teams. There are of course some cases where the police cannot do this. I have worked in a former juvenile/youth offender's institute where there were under 18s serving life sentences.
Thanks to the Court of Appeal (as mentioned above), a reprimand or final warning is kept on the police system until you are 100 years old. But it does not constitute a criminal record and does not have to be disclosed as such - even with enhanced CRBs.
I hope this clears things up.
Not entirely correct and as a former police officer myself I feel I am qualified to express my views. In the case where there may not be enough evidence to prosecute or it is not deemed in the public interest a verbal warning can be issued along with NFA.
Alternatively you can be arrested, warned and then released without ever going near a police station.
Thanks to everybody for commenting!
I would like to clear up the facts that:
I know for a fact that my reprimand will show up on an enhanced disclosure, having had one previously for a job working with disabled children (a position that I got regardless of the reprimand). I know, therefore that the university will find out about it (the GTTR requires you declare convictions in the first instance, and for the purposes of working with children, reprimands, cautions and PNDs count as convictions).
Having done my research, it seems that this information will be ignored at first and I will be treated like a normal candidate. If I am subsequently offered a place I will then have to go before a university board to assess whether the offer should be forfeited because of my police (not criminal) record.
I am asking what will happen when, rather than if they will, find out. Has anybody been in a similar situation or can shed any light on the procedure?
I would like to clear up the facts that:
I know for a fact that my reprimand will show up on an enhanced disclosure, having had one previously for a job working with disabled children (a position that I got regardless of the reprimand). I know, therefore that the university will find out about it (the GTTR requires you declare convictions in the first instance, and for the purposes of working with children, reprimands, cautions and PNDs count as convictions).
Having done my research, it seems that this information will be ignored at first and I will be treated like a normal candidate. If I am subsequently offered a place I will then have to go before a university board to assess whether the offer should be forfeited because of my police (not criminal) record.
I am asking what will happen when, rather than if they will, find out. Has anybody been in a similar situation or can shed any light on the procedure?
Original post by tommytenmen
Thanks to everybody for commenting!
I would like to clear up the facts that:
I know for a fact that my reprimand will show up on an enhanced disclosure, having had one previously for a job working with disabled children (a position that I got regardless of the reprimand). I know, therefore that the university will find out about it (the GTTR requires you declare convictions in the first instance, and for the purposes of working with children, reprimands, cautions and PNDs count as convictions).
Having done my research, it seems that this information will be ignored at first and I will be treated like a normal candidate. If I am subsequently offered a place I will then have to go before a university board to assess whether the offer should be forfeited because of my police (not criminal) record.
I am asking what will happen when, rather than if they will, find out. Has anybody been in a similar situation or can shed any light on the procedure?
I would like to clear up the facts that:
I know for a fact that my reprimand will show up on an enhanced disclosure, having had one previously for a job working with disabled children (a position that I got regardless of the reprimand). I know, therefore that the university will find out about it (the GTTR requires you declare convictions in the first instance, and for the purposes of working with children, reprimands, cautions and PNDs count as convictions).
Having done my research, it seems that this information will be ignored at first and I will be treated like a normal candidate. If I am subsequently offered a place I will then have to go before a university board to assess whether the offer should be forfeited because of my police (not criminal) record.
I am asking what will happen when, rather than if they will, find out. Has anybody been in a similar situation or can shed any light on the procedure?
I think they will let you on the course. Trouble is that is not the end of the matter - you still need to find a job afterwards.
just to let you know, I have been in contact with a uni as I am in sort of the same situation, they said to declare it as soon as possible and you will have to go in front of an independent panel and explain it to them, they will decide, if you try and get as much experience as possible that will go in your favour.
Cheers for replying guys!
Mr M - I've heard similar things. Somebody told me that I might get on the course, but I'm as good as unemployable after. Do you have any specific knowledge or experience about it?
Michael12 - I've heard the exact same thing. In fact, I have the checklist thant assess case by at Exeter, if you want the link? What uni are you in contact with? Did they say how much experience would be enough? I have 6 weeks in a school but it's tough to find much more! I can let you know how I get on with my stuff on here? I gather from the other thread that you've not started undergrad yet?
Mr M - I've heard similar things. Somebody told me that I might get on the course, but I'm as good as unemployable after. Do you have any specific knowledge or experience about it?
Michael12 - I've heard the exact same thing. In fact, I have the checklist thant assess case by at Exeter, if you want the link? What uni are you in contact with? Did they say how much experience would be enough? I have 6 weeks in a school but it's tough to find much more! I can let you know how I get on with my stuff on here? I gather from the other thread that you've not started undergrad yet?
Original post by tommytenmen
Cheers for replying guys!
Mr M - I've heard similar things. Somebody told me that I might get on the course, but I'm as good as unemployable after. Do you have any specific knowledge or experience about it?
Michael12 - I've heard the exact same thing. In fact, I have the checklist thant assess case by at Exeter, if you want the link? What uni are you in contact with? Did they say how much experience would be enough? I have 6 weeks in a school but it's tough to find much more! I can let you know how I get on with my stuff on here? I gather from the other thread that you've not started undergrad yet?
Mr M - I've heard similar things. Somebody told me that I might get on the course, but I'm as good as unemployable after. Do you have any specific knowledge or experience about it?
Michael12 - I've heard the exact same thing. In fact, I have the checklist thant assess case by at Exeter, if you want the link? What uni are you in contact with? Did they say how much experience would be enough? I have 6 weeks in a school but it's tough to find much more! I can let you know how I get on with my stuff on here? I gather from the other thread that you've not started undergrad yet?
I spoke to Sheffield Hallam, probably wont end up going there, they also said it will be harder to get a job afterwards but you shouldn't be completely unemployable, yes please to the link, would be a great help. I've not started undergrad yet, please let me know how you get on, 6 weeks is probably going to be more than quite a few people bring so you should be alright, however they didn't say how much experience was recommended.
Original post by tommytenmen
As last time, any response is welcomed (aside from pure abuse). I can take it if you confirm my worst suspicions, but I hope you pleasantly surprise me.
tommytenmen
As last time, any response is welcomed (aside from pure abuse). I can take it if you confirm my worst suspicions, but I hope you pleasantly surprise me.
tommytenmen
subject access request
Original post by michael12
I spoke to Sheffield Hallam, probably wont end up going there, they also said it will be harder to get a job afterwards but you shouldn't be completely unemployable, yes please to the link, would be a great help. I've not started undergrad yet, please let me know how you get on, 6 weeks is probably going to be more than quite a few people bring so you should be alright, however they didn't say how much experience was recommended.
Here's the download link mate - http://www.exeter.ac.uk/media/level1/academicserviceswebsite/admissions/crb/Applicants_declaring_a_criminal_conviction.pdf
I'll let you know in this thread if I get interviews, how they go and anything after as and when it happens.
Sputum, I don't know what you want me to look at? I know what my police record looks like, I have an old CRB check.
Original post by tommytenmen
Here's the download link mate - http://www.exeter.ac.uk/media/level1/academicserviceswebsite/admissions/crb/Applicants_declaring_a_criminal_conviction.pdf
I'll let you know in this thread if I get interviews, how they go and anything after as and when it happens.
Sputum, I don't know what you want me to look at? I know what my police record looks like, I have an old CRB check.
I'll let you know in this thread if I get interviews, how they go and anything after as and when it happens.
Sputum, I don't know what you want me to look at? I know what my police record looks like, I have an old CRB check.
thanks
Original post by tommytenmen
Sputum, I don't know what you want me to look at? I know what my police record looks like, I have an old CRB check.
Sorry I misinterpreted all the 'forgot to mention it' and 'not part of my life any more' stuff and missed your clarification too
It's a ridiculously unfair situation but you have a lot going for you otherwise (subsequent work with vulnerable children, presumably good reference for same and the other stuff you mention) and I guess you'd have a better chance than most.
Good luck
Original post by sputum
Sorry I misinterpreted all the 'forgot to mention it' and 'not part of my life any more' stuff and missed your clarification too
It's a ridiculously unfair situation but you have a lot going for you otherwise (subsequent work with vulnerable children, presumably good reference for same and the other stuff you mention) and I guess you'd have a better chance than most.
Good luck
It's a ridiculously unfair situation but you have a lot going for you otherwise (subsequent work with vulnerable children, presumably good reference for same and the other stuff you mention) and I guess you'd have a better chance than most.
Good luck
Thanks a lot for the vote of confidence! I did get the job... However, they waited so long to give me a start date that summer was over and I had to go back to university and turn it down. I wasn't too bothered at the time, but now I'm really gutted as I realise how good it would have looked on an application. Nobody wants to hear that, but I didn't want you disillusioned!
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