Hamas militants caught firing rockets next to a hotel where journalists were staying

Original post by tsr1269

The UK does not consider HAMAS to be a terrorist organisation. Is that not good enough for you?

Hey, why do you think Hamas doesn't fire its rockets from all those wide open fields in Gaza? Why does it fire them from civilian areas, from churches and mosques, from areas next to UN buildings and hotels?

Why is that?

Reply 202

Original post by MostUncivilised

If I were to speculate, I would say that it is because they don't want Israel to destroy both their crops (of what little farm area they possess) and their buildings...

Reply 203

Original post by MostUncivilised

What's your definition of a terrorist organisation? By the way, it's listed as a terrorist organisation by the European Union. The UK is part of the European Union

So why does it operate an independent list of terrorist organisations which is not reconciled with the terror list of the EU? Explain the discrepancies please.

HAMAS is one. I'm sure there are many others...

Reply 204

Original post by UniOfLife

You needed to clarify that point did you? I thought it was pretty clear.

And yes, I know exactly what you're going to say next.

Then all that is left is for me to say this:

Even though you recognize your own viewpoint to be "divorced from reality", you are still plugging away, trying to feed (dis)information which is not accurate nor realistic yet portraying or holding yourself out to be a realistic individual.

Your passion and zeal for the defense of the atrocious and horrendous actions perpetrated by the oppressive and brutal regime, which is Israel, against the helpless and besieged Palestinians is quite admirable but I fear the tears of denial has clouded your to the plight and struggle of the Palestinians to be recognised as humans by the quite paranoid and irrational Israeli state.

I pity you, I really do.

Reply 205

Original post by tsr1269

So why does it operate an independent list of terrorist organisations which is not reconciled with the terror list of the EU?

Are you denying that the United Kingdom is in the European Union?

Reply 206

Original post by tsr1269

If I were to speculate, I would say that it is because they don't want Israel to destroy both their crops (of what little farm area they possess) and their buildings...

So you're saying they know Israel will respond, and they'd rather civilians die and houses are destroyed by firing rockets from cities than... lose some crops.

Yup, there's that famous Hamas respect for life we've all heard about. By the way, when you say "what little farm area they possess", I'm guessing you actually haven't looked at a satellite picture of Gaza?

Reply 207

Original post by tsr1269

Even though you recognize your own viewpoint to be "divorced from reality"

Ahh, no; he called you divorced from reality. I'm inclined to agree with him.

trying to feed (dis)information

By disinformation, you mean "He has a different point of view on this subject, and that is not allowed". Shortly followed by you breathlessly shrieking "Hasbara! Hasbara!".

Your passion and zeal for the defense of the atrocious and horrendous actions perpetrated by the oppressive and brutal regime, which is Israel, against the helpless and besieged

What florid language. It's a bit embarassing, a bit transparent, don't you think? You are clearly allowing your deep emotions to cloud your judgment.

Reply 208

Original post by MostUncivilised

Hamas has admitted that Israel tries to avoid civilian casualties

Please share your source.

Reply 209

Original post by Person1001

Please share your source.

The Hamas urban warfare manual that was found in Shujaiyah reads under a section entitled "Limiting the Use of Weapons";

The soldiers and commanders (of the IDF) must limit their use of weapons and tactics that lead to the harm and unnecessary loss of people and [destruction of] civilian facilities. It is difficult for them to get the most use out of their firearms, especially of supporting fire [e.g. artillery].

http://www.idfblog.com/blog/2014/08/04/captured-hamas-combat-manual-explains-benefits-human-shields/

Of course, it's likely that instead of engaging with the evidence, or even doing a critical analysis, you will just start shrieking "hasbara! hasbara" as that is what passes for a serious response on this forum.

Though to be honest, I'm unsure why you would do so. The fact that Israel tries to limit civilian casualties is beyond dispute. The "knock on the roof" is widespread and publicly known

Reply 210

Original post by MostUncivilised

Are you denying that the United Kingdom is in the European Union?

I'm simply asking why the UK would operate an independent list if the EU list would suffice for the UK.

Original post by MostUncivilised

So you're saying they know Israel will respond, and they'd rather civilians die and houses are destroyed by firing rockets from cities than... lose some crops.

Let's take this hypothetical scenario (firing from fields) on step at a time otherwise it gets a little confusing:

a) HAMAS fires from fields (see below as to why it's unrealistic)
b) Israel strikes these fighters. Fighters die and crops wither and die
c) Eventually or quite soon in Gaza, they run out of fields. Where can they go?

The only reasonable place would then be to fire from what are considered "civilian areas".

Given the state of economy in Gaza, as well as the policy of the Israeli's to "count the calories", it is not reasonable to have both your men and crops destroyed given the fact that your crops are needed to sustain the life of your men.

It's callous and some may think it cruel but that's military tactics for you.

Yup, there's that famous Hamas respect for life we've all heard about. By the way, when you say "what little farm area they possess", I'm guessing you actually haven't looked at a satellite picture of Gaza?

Given the fact that it's around the 6th most densely populated "country" in the world and combine that with the fact that there have been confirmed reports about Israel using flachette shells, which to anyone else is the very definition of "indiscriminate", then you don't have to look far to see that even if HAMAS were to operate from fields, then there is no guarantee that civilians would not be killed and their crops not destroyed like Israel intentionally and routinely does with Palestinian fishing boats, destroying them, thus making them unseaworthy resulting in a loss of sustenance, in order for Palestinians to become dependent on the "goodwill" of the Israeli's.

Original post by MostUncivilised

Ahh, no; he called you divorced from reality. I'm inclined to agree with him.

He stated those who believe HAMAS are not a terrorist organisation are "divorced from reality". Given the fact that the UK is of this opinion, then one can state that the opposite viewpoint (HAMAS are a terrorist organisation) is also "divorced from reality".

In fact, the correct stance on this issue is the one that I have told him repeatedly which is that "according to some, they are and according to others, they are not"...

By disinformation, you mean "He has a different point of view on this subject, and that is not allowed". Shortly followed by you breathlessly shrieking "Hasbara! Hasbara!".

I'm simply correcting his statements. If you believe that entails me or gives me the authorisation to cry "Hasbara! Hasbara", then who am I to deny thee?

What florid language. It's a bit embarassing, a bit transparent, don't you think? You are clearly allowing your deep emotions to cloud your judgment.

If Israeli's or pro-Israeli's/Zionists find the truth embarrassing, then no wonder they resort to mistruths or downright lies to make themselves as well as their opinions, of which they possess many, look "reasonable" and "acceptable" in order to exploit the young naiive masses...

Reply 211

Original post by MostUncivilised

The Hamas urban warfare manual that was found in Shujaiyah reads under a section entitled "Limiting the Use of Weapons";

http://www.idfblog.com/blog/2014/08/04/captured-hamas-combat-manual-explains-benefits-human-shields/

Of course, it's likely that instead of engaging with the evidence, or even doing a critical analysis, you will just start shrieking "hasbara! hasbara" as that is what passes for a serious response on this forum.

Though to be honest, I'm unsure why you would do so. The fact that Israel tries to limit civilian casualties is beyond dispute. The "knock on the roof" is widespread and publicly known

Thank you for this!

An example of a blatant forgery! I actually didn't think there was much more than Israel paying students to defend zionism on social media sites or having the need of the infamous leaked Frank Luntz document on how Israel should 'behave' and choose their words to defend Israel's illegal activities!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boAYuOgqzJQ&feature=youtu.be

Thanks for the "critical analysis" tip - in fact the forgery can be spotted by an amateur.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 212

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boAYuOgqzJQ&feature=youtu.be

Original post by Person1001

You call that a critical analysis? It's just a bunch of silly lines and bizarre conclusions, it looks a lot like the "analysis" you see from a 9.11 truther.

Why don't you tell me in your own words precisely why it's a forgery? Explain precisely what that video is claiming

Reply 213

Original post by tsr1269

So it's better that civilians die than crops die?

Also, I don't think you know much about farming if you think a bomb hitting a field renders all the crops destroyed. And you don't have much of a sense of scale if you don't realise how many bombs that would take.

I think you know the real reason is that if they fired from fields, not only would it be far easier for Israel to target them, but also no civilians would die in the crossfire and therefore no dead bodies to parade in front of the cameras.

But I'm happy to stick with your first answer; crops are more important than human beings.

It's callous and some may think it cruel but that's military tactics for you.

And yet when Israel makes those kinds of decisions, they are evil bloodthirsty baby murderers. But when Hamas makes a decision that results in civilian deaths, that's all okay by you. They're heroes of the resistance. I believe this is known as hypocrisy.

then you don't have to look far to see that even if HAMAS were to operate from fields, then there is no guarantee that civilians would not be killed and their crops not destroyed

There's no guarantee civilians wouldn't be killed, but it's simply axiomatic that far less would be killed. You seem to be saying that because they can't guarantee civilians wouldn't be killed if they fired from the fields, they should fire from areas where it is guaranteed many more civilians will die. Yup, that totally makes sense

He stated those who believe HAMAS are not a terrorist organisation are "divorced from reality". Given the fact that the UK is of this opinion

In the European Union, Hamas is a listed terrorist organisation. The United Kingdom is in the European Union.

Or let's do this another way; answer this question. Is the United Kingdom in the European Union?

If you believe that entails me or gives me the authorisation to cry "Hasbara! Hasbara", then who am I to deny thee?

Nothing I say entitles (or disentitles) you to anything. I'm merely raising the pro-Hamas tendency to shriek "Hasbara! Hasbara!" (almost as if blowing a rape whistle) when you run out of arguments. It's like you're signalling to other pro-Hamas people, "Danger! Danger! We've got one that can read!"

But go ahead matey :smile:

Happy for you to oblige me and commence the shrieking

(I emphasised shriek because that's quite important. You don't just "cry" it, as in "'Hasbara!' he cried". It's more a breathless, worried, angry shriek)

If Israeli's or pro-Israeli's/Zionists find the truth embarrassing

The reality is actually that Hamas and their supporters in the West find the truth embarrassing. That's why they make bizarre claims like "Actually, gay men are treated very well in Gaza" or "Here, women have complete equal rights". I can't wait to hear more of these "factual" claims :smile:

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 214

Original post by MostUncivilised

Right?

The video proves that Israel photoshopped the picture - I think we'll let others to decide if the analysis is "bizarre" but it's no surprise Israel has gone to these lengths.

To put it in simply, just for you, the image wasn't flat when it was scanned ( it shows a significant fold) and at the same time the writing is lined perfectly over a straight rule w= contradiction.

Does it surprise you that Israel would go to these extroadinary lengths though? They have fabricated evidence before? They are pumping a lot of cash in their social media workforce? They did even make a document on how to behave and choose their words in order to defend their illegal activities over the news.

Reply 215

Original post by Person1001

Right?

The video proves that Israel photoshopped the picture

It "proves" is in the same way 9/11 truthers "prove" that the World Trade Centre was demolished with explosive. In fact, they often use the same silly red lines

To put it in simply, just for you, the image wasn't flat when it was scanned

How do you know it was scanned? How do you know they didn't take a picture of it using a battlefield digital camera or smartphone? I often do that to capture documents.

at the same time the writing is lined perfectly over a straight rule w= contradiction.

Yeah, I looked at it and actually the writing wasn't perfectly straight. The only thing that was perfectly straight were the red lines. You do realise the red lines were added by the conspiracy theorist, they weren't actually on the document?

Does it surprise you that Israel would go to these extroadinary lengths though?

Isn't that a complete contradiction? They'd go to "extraordinary" lengths, but not bother to just print it out and then scan/photo it? :lol:

Israel wouldn't need to forge such a document as it is perfectly consistent with what Hamas would say, given Israel does try to avoid civilian casualties, and that is beyond dispute.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 216

UniOfLife

Original post by MostUncivilised

Are you denying that the United Kingdom is in the European Union?

This user has stated elsewhere that he believes that according to the UK only the military arm of Hamas is a terrorist organisation and not the political wing. This apparently has not been noticed by the Deputy PM who wrote an article urging Israel to negotiate with Hamas and then wrote: (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/01/israel-hamas-gaza-resolve-conflict)

In writing this, I know I will provoke some anger. I will receive letters and emails arguing that Israel should not reward terrorists with talks. I understand that reaction and recognise the existential fear among Israeli people. My response is this: military action has repeatedly failed to prevent rocket attacks against innocent Israelis. Modern history teaches that you can’t shoot, occupy or besiege your way to lasting security. Peace only ever flows from sustained and stubborn engagement. The Queen shaking hands with Martin McGuinness two years ago reminded us that even the most intractable conflicts can be resolved.

Why, one supposed, did he not simply say that he's asking for negotiations with the political arm of Hamas who are not terrorists?

The Leader of the Opposition who attacked the PM for not condemning Israel strongly enough also didn't seem to get the memo that this dear user got. He is quoted in the Guardian saying: (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/02/ed-miliband-david-cameron-inexplicable-silence-gaza)

David Cameron should be playing a leading role in these efforts to secure peace. He is right to say that Hamas is an appalling, terrorist organisation. Its wholly unjustified rocket attacks on Israeli citizens, as well as the building of tunnels for terrorist purposes, show the organisation's murderous intent and practice towards Israel and its citizens.

So on the one hand we have the Deputy PM and Leader of the Opposition and on the other we have this random bloke on the Internet.

But you know, for the sake of argument let's start with the premise that the military arm and political arm are separate and see where that takes us. First we ask if the military arm is under the control of the political arm. If yes then the political arm is the same organisation as the military arm and is therefore a terrorist organisation. (Incidentally if its the other way around then we reach the same conclusion.) We can only avoid it by positing that the two arms are almost entirely independent.

So next we ask just who exactly is supposedly offering this ceasefire thing? If it's the political arm then the offer is worthless because by our initial assumption they have no control over the military wing and cannot offer a truce. If it's the military wing then the Hamas in this context is a terrorist organisation.

But don't worry tsr1269, I don't expect a coherent rational response. I believe that is beyond you.

Reply 217

Original post by MostUncivilised

Yeah, I looked at it and actually the writing wasn't perfectly straight. The only thing that was perfectly straight were the red lines.

Now that's just pathetic. The source states that the rule on the writing is straight to the pixel - the red line is there to illustrate that. Of course you are obliged to download it and verify it yourself/

Original post by MostUncivilised

Isn't that a complete contradiction? They'd go to "extraordinary" lengths, but not bother to just print it out and then scan/photo it?

Extraodinary lengths - sloppy but desperate.

Original post by MostUncivilised

Israel wouldn't need to forge such a document as it is perfectly consistent with what Hamas would say, given Israel does try to avoid civilian casualties, and that is beyond dispute.

Uhm lol in bold - you living in Narnia. You're just embarrassing yourself!
Plenty of explicit footage from journalists though that proves categorically Israel targets civilians and in particular children. Two of which you must have heard of as they had been featured on all major news - From Children playing on the beach ( who the IDF probably thought were hiding bombs in their stomach lol) to the innocent 'green-shirted' man shot with a sniper for just standing on rubble. Amongst countless other footage.

But it's good to know Regev has quit stating that Hamas use civilians as human shields because we all know how quickly that became known as a lie. Do you want proof that the IDF who don't target civilians use Palestinians as human shields?

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 218

Original post by Person1001

The source states that the rule on the writing is straight to the pixel - the red line is there to illustrate that

You seem to be confused. The "source" told you that the writing is straight. Actually, it's the red line that's straight, not the writing. That's pretty obvious to anyone who looks.

Extraodinary lengths - sloppy but desperate.

Mate, it's one or the other. Either

Plenty of explicit footage from journalists though that proves categorically Israel targets civilians

Which footage? Show me footage from inside an Israeli F-16 where the pilot says, "I'm going to target the children now". Show me a recording of Israeli military transmissions where we see just one time an order given to go kill some children.

Of course, I know you want to believe it's true, you have a psychological need to believe Israelis are evil. But the fact is that If Israel wanted to murder Palestinian civilians, they could off 50,000 in a single day. In fact, they could completely wipe out the Palestinians if they really wanted to. But they don't, that's why only 10.000 have been killed in the last 50 years, and you turn a blind eye to 150,000 killed in Syria.

Your claims are just desperate delusions, given the "knock on the roof", given all the airstrikes cancelled to prevent deaths of children. Oh and the fact that children are the least likely to be killed out of all age groups by Israeli bombing. But please, show me the orders where a soldier has been ordered to kill children. Just one will do.

But it's good to know Regev has quit stating that Hamas use civilians as human shields

Bahahahahaaaahahahahaha. Hamas themselves admit they use human shields

[video="youtube;eQ6S0-o3uFI"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ6S0-o3uFI&feature=youtu.be[/video]

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 219