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How do mathematicians know when to stop?

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Reply 40
Original post by Bobifier
You have pointed out that in a single time (not even of relevance to our society), a single development in mathematics would not have improved things. This in no way serves to back up your claim that almost all maths is unbeneficial. I suspect that the reason you are struggling to back your claim up is that actually it is false.


How about "Number theory of Roman numerals". Do you think it is worth being developed?
Reply 41
Original post by thomaskurian89
How about "Number theory of Roman numerals". Do you think it is worth being developed?


Number theory does not depend upon notation - the theory in Roman Numerals is identical to the theory in decimal. It has already been developed. Perhaps the reason you are asking these questions is that you don't actually know anything about Maths?

At risk of repeating myself, I would also like to point out that you have simply offered another example. No individual example or set of examples will suffice to demonstrate that almost all Maths is useless to us. In order to back up the point you have made, you need to say something about the nature of Mathematics rather than the nature of narrow parts of Mathematics.
Reply 42
Original post by thomaskurian89
But any branch of mathematics is just a human invention. Since we could (in theory) invent infinitely many branches of mathematics, how do we decide which branch is more worthy of study than the other? It has to be based on the usefulness.


Inventions are invented. Science (eg: Maths) is discovered. Mathematicians aren't just pulling numbers out of their arse and acting all smart, they discover abstract mathematical concepts that describe the world around us. So yes, learning about maths is learning about life.

Original post by thomaskurian89
Suppose we were living in primitive times and had just invented the decimal system for counting. Inventing the binary system then would not benefit society.


Exactly. The Binary System was pretty useless when it was first formed, yet modern computing wouldn't exist the way it does today without it. It's all about forming working models of the world around us, which quite often (though not necessarily always) yields useful applications.
Reply 43
Original post by Bobifier
Number theory does not depend upon notation - the theory in Roman Numerals is identical to the theory in decimal. It has already been developed.


What I meant was being able to do all sorts of calculations using Roman numerals.

Perhaps the reason you are asking these questions is that you don't actually know anything about Maths?


Please don't resort to personal insults.

At risk of repeating myself, I would also like to point out that you have simply offered another example. No individual example or set of examples will suffice to demonstrate that almost all Maths is useless to us. In order to back up the point you have made, you need to say something about the nature of Mathematics rather than the nature of narrow parts of Mathematics.


Just like in mathematics, we see if something is true for a few special cases and then try to prove it in general. :smile:
Reply 44
Original post by Vian
Inventions are invented. Science (eg: Maths) is discovered. Mathematicians aren't just pulling numbers out of their arse and acting all smart, they discover abstract mathematical concepts that describe the world around us. So yes, learning about maths is learning about life.


Imho lots of maths is arguably more of an art than a science.
Reply 45
Original post by thomaskurian89
What I meant was being able to do all sorts of calculations using Roman numerals.

Please don't resort to personal insults.

Just like in mathematics, we see if something is true for a few special cases and then try to prove it in general. :smile:


Regardless, such an oddly specific example tells us nothing about the nature of Mathematics. Furthermore, we can perform calculations in numerals by converting the numbers to decimal, performing our calculation, then converting them back. I have just created a complete theory of your problem, you are focussing on something of a triviality.

I am not resorting to personal insults. It is increasingly clear that you know nothing about mathematics and if this is the case then it is a waste of both our times to discuss Mathematics with each other. You should not try to comment on issues that you don't know anything about. At the very least you should try to take a brief amount of time to understand them. Whether you understand how Maths works is very significant to discussion with you in this thread. If we find that you know nothing about Maths then your questions can be answered simply by you learning more about Maths.

Finally, that is not what we do in Maths. It is simply not. That is not how Maths is done. Specific cases tell us nothing. Furthermore, you have incorrectly used the word 'special'. It is true that sometimes in Maths we will take special cases and generalise, but the special cases are almost always themselves general in some way, and the examples you have chosen are actually not in any way special. They are oddly random cases that are nothing to do with the nature of Maths and everything to do with fitting the specific criteria you have selected to try to prove your point. Again, and for the last time, I will tell you that if you cannot say something about the nature of Maths and if all you are capable of doing is giving (stupid) examples then you have already defeated your own argument.
(edited 11 years ago)
Reply 46
Original post by Bobifier
Regardless, such an oddly specific example tells us nothing about the nature of Mathematics. Furthermore, we can perform calculations in numerals by converting the numbers to decimal, performing our calculation, then converting them back. I have just created a complete theory of your problem, you are focussing on something of a triviality.

I am not resorting to personal insults. It is increasingly clear that you know nothing about mathematics and if this is the case then it is a waste of both our times to discuss Mathematics with each other. You should not try to comment on issues that you don't know anything about. At the very least you should try to take a brief amount of time to understand them. Whether you understand how Maths works is very significant to discussion with you in this thread. If we find that you know nothing about Maths then your questions can be answered simply by you learning more about Maths.

Finally, that is not what we do in Maths. It is simply not. That is not how Maths is done. Specific cases tell us nothing. Furthermore, you have incorrectly used the word 'special'. It is true that sometimes in Maths we will take special cases and generalise, but the special cases are almost always themselves general in some way, and the examples you have chosen are actually not in any way special. They are oddly random cases that are nothing to do with the nature of Maths and everything to do with fitting the specific criteria you have selected to try to prove your point. Again, and for the last time, I will tell you that if you cannot say something about the nature of Maths and if all you are capable of doing is giving (stupid) examples then you have already defeated your own argument.


Let me turn the question around: Can you prove that most (if not all) branches of mathematics that can be developed will benefit society?
Reply 47
Original post by thomaskurian89
Let me turn the question around: Can you prove that most (if not all) branches of mathematics that can be developed will benefit society?


Easy, by induction - the scientific kind and not the mathematical kind. Most if not all branches of mathematics have consistently proved useful in the past, therefore it is reasonable to expect that future developments will also be useful.
Reply 48
Original post by mmmpie
Easy, by induction - the scientific kind and not the mathematical kind. Most if not all branches of mathematics have consistently proved useful in the past, therefore it is reasonable to expect that future developments will also be useful.


That's a circular argument because most branches of mathematics have been developed in response to scientific needs. For example, calculus was invented by Newton to solve mechanics problems.
Reply 49
Original post by thomaskurian89
That's a circular argument because most branches of mathematics have been developed in response to scientific needs. For example, calculus was invented by Newton to solve mechanics problems.


That's not quite true. A lot of branches (I suspect the majority, although I can't really justify it), particularly in pure mathematics, were developed for their own sake, and then turned out to be incredibly useful later on. Either way, it wasn't a circular argument at all.

Do you have a similar problem with, say, music or other art forms?
Reply 50
Original post by Cerdog
Do you have a similar problem with, say, music or other art forms?


Not with music.

But sometimes, I wonder why people paint pictures from nature anymore. Such pictures had to be painted before the invention of the camera. However, today I would rather look at a photo than at a painting.
Reply 51
Original post by thomaskurian89
Not with music.

What's the difference? Music is much less of a benefit to society than maths is.
Reply 52
Original post by Cerdog
What's the difference? Music is much less of a benefit to society than maths is.


Unlike complicated maths, music has therapeutic value.
Reply 53
Original post by thomaskurian89
Unlike complicated maths, music has therapeutic value.


Doing maths is very therapeutic in itself, but even disregarding that, are you implying that those aspects of music outweigh the myriad benefits mathematics has had on society?
Reply 54
Original post by Cerdog
Doing maths is very therapeutic in itself, but even disregarding that, are you implying that those aspects of music outweigh the myriad benefits mathematics has had on society?


Obviously not. But I think any kind of music is more "beneficial" than useless mathematics.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by thomaskurian89
Obviously not. But I think any kind of music is more "beneficial" than useless mathematics.


The world needs to be shot of people such as yourself.

Read this and re-evaluate your existence:
http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=math

Regards,
The somewhat more intelligent half of the human race.
Reply 56
Original post by Xtrapolation
The world needs to be shot of people such as yourself.

Read this and re-evaluate your existence:
http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=math

Regards,
The somewhat more intelligent half of the human race.


FYI, I'm a student of mathematics (see some of my posts way back in '08 and '09) and am very passionate about the subject. The reason I do it is for the intellectual challenge. The question in the OP is just something I was musing upon.
Original post by thomaskurian89
FYI, I'm a student of mathematics (see some of my posts way back in '08 and '09) and am very passionate about the subject. The reason I do it is for the intellectual challenge. The question in the OP is just something I was musing upon.


Hmm... a school student or uni student? I find it hard to believe that you're studying it at a higher level and are yet so anti-mathematics / ignorant of how maths works / develops over history / underpins the universe and most modern technology in existence today.

You don't sound like a mathematician or a scientist in general.
Reply 58
Original post by thomaskurian89
FYI, I'm a student of mathematics (see some of my posts way back in '08 and '09) and am very passionate about the subject. The reason I do it is for the intellectual challenge. The question in the OP is just something I was musing upon.


Seems like you have answered your own question there. Unless of course you think that the intellectual challenge is an acceptable motivation only for you, but not for other people?
Reply 59
Original post by Y__
Seems like you have answered your own question there. Unless of course you think that the intellectual challenge is an acceptable motivation only for you, but not for other people?


How can people get paid for merely pursuing an intellectual challenge.

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