Why do Secular schools generally get outperformed by Faith schools?

If we look at results here for 2007/08 schools, we see that secular schools come last out of all the groups:

You may be thinking "well that's because they take in much more disadvantaged children".
However, if we look at the percent of children who are on free school meals:

We see that Muslim schools take in a much higher number of disadvantaged children. Despite this, they achieve top results on average, comfortably beating secular schools, and generally performing very well. So I'm not so sure that this excuse of taking in more disadvantaged pupils is necessarily correct - if Muslim schools can take in lots of disadvantaged kids and achieve top results, then why can't Secular schools?

All opinions welcome.

(edited 11 years ago)

Scroll to see replies

Reply 1

whyumadtho

Commonality between the students facilitating a more productive and amiable working environment than that of state schools. Conservatism also plays a role.

Reply 2

Norton1

As far as I can see there's an absolutely tiny number of Muslim schools.

See the table here; http://www.education.gov.uk/aboutdfe/foi/disclosuresaboutschools/a0065446/maintained-faith-schools

State School
Religious Character Number %
Christian 32 0.16
Church of England (C of E) 4598 22.88
C of E/Christian 1 0.01
C of E/Free Church 1 0.01
C of E/Methodist 33 0.16
C of E/Methodist/United Reform Church/Baptist 1 0.01
C of E/RC 10 0.05
Greek Orthodox 1 0.01
Hindu 1 0.01
Jewish 38 0.19
Methodist 26 0.13
Methodist/C of E 3 0.01
Muslim 11 0.05
Quaker 1 0.01
Roman Catholic 2010 10
RC/C of E 10 0.05
Seventh Day Adventist 1 0.01
Sikh 4 0.02
United Reformed Church 1 0.01

I suspect that that probably skews the statistics a little. (apologies for my incompetence in getting that table over; basically there's 11 Muslim schools)

How many secular schools are there? I can't find a reputable source straight off the bat but I know it will be much bigger.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 3

Phantom Lord

Original post by Norton1

As far as I can see there's an absolutely tiny number of Muslim schools.

See the table here; http://www.education.gov.uk/aboutdfe/foi/disclosuresaboutschools/a0065446/maintained-faith-schools

I suspect that that probably skews the statistics a little.

Don't really see why that matters, they still take in on average much worse off children, even if it is only a few schools.

Reply 4

kaypc

i always wondered that. my school has much higher expectations of us than my previous secular school and they put in more activities to help us but this isn't something that any good secular schools wouldn't do.

Reply 5

Norton1

Original post by AkaJetson

Don't really see why that matters, they still take in on average much worse off children, even if it is only a few schools.

Ask a statistician? In VERY general terms (because I am no sort of expert) a larger sample size produces more robust results because it's less likely that they can be skewed.

My personal thought is that that could be the cause of why Muslim schools appear to outperform C of E schools, it may also be that almost all of those Muslim schools are new schools (there were 4 in 2001) so maybe the new facilities help. Maybe it's a cultural thing that Asian families - who I suspect make up a large majority of the UK Muslim population- value education and so push their kids harder.

The thing is that until someone undertakes a rigorous study we're building castles in the air. It could be a million reasons, and a very small sample size is as good as any.

Reply 6

Miracle Day

Maybe religious people are more morally tuned? Which would naturally make classes less distruptive as people are less likely to play up?

Just a thought.

Reply 7

Jack93o

Their parents are stricter and are generally more forceful on their children.

Reply 8

Dirac Delta Function

Family environment, I'd guess.

Reply 9

Ray Bradbury

Original post by Miracle Day

Maybe religious people are more morally tuned? Which would naturally make classes less distruptive as people are less likely to play up?

Just a thought.

Original post by Jack93o

Their parents are stricter and are generally more forceful on their children.

Original post by Dirac Delta Function

Family environment, I'd guess.

I think all three sum it up. Also religious families are less likely to be the dysfunctional type whose children take all that baggage into the classroom and drag down the school exam results.

Reply 10

Donald Duck

Because people who go to faith schools tend to listen to their parents better, both
-from a religious point of view
-from a point of view where they tell them to work hard

Also, religious people often tend to be less interested in salaries. Therefore the more intelligent religious people are more likely to become teachers (vs working in the city), and therefore teachers at these religious schools tend to be better.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 11

Fuzzed_Out

Generally parents who make the effort to send their kids to a faith school are more willing to take an active role in their child's learning. I'm an atheist now and despite all the brain washing attempts my school slapped on me I'd still choose to send my kids to the Catholic school I attended than the other schools in the area.

Reply 12

Snagprophet

Presumably the more chavier, rebellious morons of students who are just going to refuse to work are going to do poorly in comparison to religious students respectful of God.

Reply 13

ahq

Does anyone have any stats on the difference in funding with regard to religious and secular schools? I would suspect that's a factor as well.

Reply 14

lukas1051

I think it's all a matter of culture. Parents who invest time in making sure their child attends a faith school are likely to be more conservative, and are likely to promote more of a work ethic. To suggest that having a religious component to education produces better results is just ridiculous.

Reply 15

Tackla

Faith my friend, faith. :yes:

LoL, why the neg. It was a joke.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 16

Snagprophet

I think there's an aspect of fear that chavs simply don't have and just keep digging themselves into a deeper hole by just constantly resisting. Not that I think of chavs when I think of atheism but religion does usually teach respect and atheists need to find a substitute, so perhaps having more authoritarian parents or something.

Reply 17

JollyGreenAtheist

I think it's more likely that parents to put the effort to get their child into a faith school (that usually involves convincing school officials that you're religious with a signature from a priest or something) can replicate that effort with their children at school.

It's got naff all to do with religious kids having a better work ethic, or being less rebellious. I go to a Catholic school - I don't think many students could define work ethic, let alone exemplify it.

There's a relationship between parents with a positive attitude towards work, and parents who will jump through the extra loopholes to ensure their kids get into a particular school. The same can be said about selective grammar schools to some degree. The fact that the criterion is religious belief has little impact on it, in my view. Plenty of parents with children at my school aren't especially religious, but recognise that they're sending their kids to one of the best schools in the area that they don't need to front of fees for.

Reply 18

Chucklefiend

Faith schools are typically better funded, stricter and more likely to expel troublesome disruptive pupils.

Reply 19

Drewski

Non serious answer?

Secular schools: muck about and you get a letter home and an expulsion, eventually.
Faith schools: muck about and you're going to hell.