To Jerby:
By a massive population discrepancy I mean the amount of people who died from food shortages and battle left Germany void of millions of young men; a valuable economic resource had been lost. I used this point because one of the arguments used for Africa being in the mess it’s in is due to our steeling large portions of their countries’ populations through slavery. I was also just highlighting it as another difficulty that was overcome.
In my use of Germany’s pre war economy I was referring to its pre-unification economy form, when it was still largely backward and agrarian. I was comparing this underdeveloped economy to African ones at the moment, and saying that all that is needed is an individual with some political skill and a willing public to turn an economy around very quickly. Africa’s economies were still very under-developed when we left but they could have developed them quickly if they could avoid political infighting.
Someone criticised my saying we brought Africans civilised government. They said we created more problems by forcing upon them a government they had no experience with. I was again comparing that Germany too had a form of government foised upon it by the allies, who didn’t want another dictatorship. The German people had no experience of democracy; they wanted another authoritarian leader, as did the army. This did cause massive unrest in the population, but the steadfastness and acumen of the government overcame these. I was therefore arguing that our forcing upon Africans a government they aren’t familiar with isn’t a valid reason for the turmoil they’re in toady, as the same happened to the Germans, yet they sorted it out very quickly. I wasn’t trying to say democracy was bad in an ideological sense, if that’s what you’re getting at.
It is just a casual debate, but one of the other posters was getting hostile and cocky, and I wasn’t prepared to be put down by his poor comebacks.
This argument about Bismarck believing he had no real control over events is almost as polemical as the one we’re having now! I can’t be bothered outlining all the arguments and evidencing them, but my opinion is that Bismarck did have a grand plan; you can’t turn a country around that quickly simply by riding events. Nor can you control foreign policy with such skill simply by riding events.
Yes Africa has a lot against it, but the basis of my argument is that many other countries (I used Germany as an example) have faced equally hard problems and overcame them with great success. Some of the problems facing Africa you also outlined are often attributed to our Imperial footprint. A sub-argument of mine was that major factors such as corrupt politicians have nothing to do with our imperial heritage.
Additionally, Africa is actually quite an abundant continent disregarding the Sahara desert (which is sparsely populated anyway). The middle of it goes right through the equator. If you look at satellite images, most of it is the same colour green as northern Europe. I’m over-simplifying, but you get what I’m saying, the resources aren’t that restricted. Also, I should clarify that I’m talking specifically about the problems facing African nations that Britain once ruled. Every country Britain ruled in Africa had, and still has, an abundance of resources.
Gwai:
I actually got neg repped for my post talking about Naill Ferguson and Oxford interviews. The comment was it was pointless to the argument. It was superfluous, but a trivial reason, and also increases the irony you discovered! My other neg rep was for saying Kitchener’s concentration camps have been the most effective way of dealing with a guerrilla enemy to date. This statement’s implications are obviously nasty, but I did clearly say I was making no comment on them having virtues and I said they were immoral, I was simply stating a fact that they are the most effective way of dealing with a guerrilla enemy. I wasn’t making any references to the methods it used. I did imply however that compared to today’s methods of supposed ‘precision’ bombing, Guantanamo bay and secret CIA jails, were concentration camps really that much more immoral that how we treat a guerrilla enemy today, if they’re not, how can we call them immoral if we haven’t improved upon this supposedly immorality? NOTE: I am not trying to justify concentration camps.
I disagree with this aid argument, with it being ‘useless’ and ‘symptomatic of a wider Western supposition that problems can be solved by throwing money at them’. Why is the blame on us again? Aid works if the governments you give it to aren’t corrupt and actually use it for its purpose. You’re overcomplicating the issue. If we give them aid, and they use it properly, the problems will be healed in some ways. They aren’t though; the governments are so corrupt the aid that is given is put into the back pockets of officials. You can say the west isn’t doing enough to stop this corruption, but what do you want us to do? Act like a colonial power again and have a physical presence in these countries making sure corruption isn’t taking place? As for the international trade system being skewed against them, what do you want us to do? Totally revamp the international economy to the detriment of the hundreds of nations that benefits from using it just so corrupt African countries get it easier?
Yes, I invited the discussion of the British Empire, so arguments that apply solely to the British Empire would therefore be ok. However, using the argument that we were morally despicable in indulging in the slave trade, and implying Britain was the only nation to do this, isn’t arguing solely against the British Empire. It is therefore justifiable to say that our slaving past wasn’t singularly down to our unique mentality, but down to a pervasive colonial mentality at the time.
Isn’t one of the key skills examined in history exams the ability to look at details from isolated incidents, and use this analysis in a broad argument that balances pros and cons? If historians spent all there time studying microcosms of history and not trying to draw conclusions from the bigger picture, it would lose a lot of its purpose. (Potential spark for another debate?)
You’re right, I have an A level standard grasp on German history from just before unification, but I’ve only began studying British imperial history recently, and in my own time. I do therefore have limitations in my knowledge when arguing against someone who has studying Imperial history at A level. You could argue I shouldn’t start a debate on the side of something I don’t know everything about, but I figured arguing my case and seeing the counter arguments used would be the best way to increase my understanding of imperial history. I guess you guys have done me a favour. That I only have really in depth knowledge of German history and early 20th century British domestic history means I’m limited in stuff I can use to backup my arguments with. So although Germany may not be the best comparative example to illustrate my argument, it’s all I can go off.