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Getting upset with the lack of English-speaking people in England.
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Original post by Wilfred Little
That's a flawed statistic and a one-dimensional way of looking at it.
Are unplanned pregnancies, cheating on one's partner, family breakdowns, physical accidents and injuries, street fights, verbal abuse, STD proliferation, depression, humiliation of one's behaviour, weight gain and being bed-ridden not problems then? Because alcohol causes all of them. And this is without even going in to how much it costs the economy because of the damage.
I have seen with my own eyes enough times to know, that British people cannot, for the most part, handle their drink. Europeans are generally better with it, as are Americans. You often hear people remark on our drinking habits when they visit.
Are unplanned pregnancies, cheating on one's partner, family breakdowns, physical accidents and injuries, street fights, verbal abuse, STD proliferation, depression, humiliation of one's behaviour, weight gain and being bed-ridden not problems then? Because alcohol causes all of them. And this is without even going in to how much it costs the economy because of the damage.
I have seen with my own eyes enough times to know, that British people cannot, for the most part, handle their drink. Europeans are generally better with it, as are Americans. You often hear people remark on our drinking habits when they visit.
You sound like a miserable person.
I very rarely hear of other people commenting on our drinking habits, and can assure you that if you go to other parts of the world they drink as much, if not more than we do. It tends to be certain groups of society though - the Americans have huge problems with the Afro-Americans, the Australians with the Aboriginals, the NZ with the Maori etc. But of course, this is swept under the carpet and from your ivory tower you probably dont see it...
the only thing I really agree with is that if you're going to live in the UK you should learn English without a doubt. As said by others If I was going to live abroad I'd learn the language, out of respect and well why wouldn't you? It makes everything a whole lot easier 
Since when was speaking your home language an indicator of how well you've integrated?
I have a friend from Egypt who speaks English fine when we're talking, but when she's talking with family or friends or even on facebook she talks in Arabic. I think it's interesting more than upsetting!
She taught me how to say "Hello" (Eh-Seh-Leh Mah-ley-koom I think?) but that's about my limit since Arabic has many syllables that I am physically incapable of pronouncing...
I have a friend from Egypt who speaks English fine when we're talking, but when she's talking with family or friends or even on facebook she talks in Arabic. I think it's interesting more than upsetting!
She taught me how to say "Hello" (Eh-Seh-Leh Mah-ley-koom I think?) but that's about my limit since Arabic has many syllables that I am physically incapable of pronouncing...
Original post by Riderz
You sound like a miserable person.
I very rarely hear of other people commenting on our drinking habits, and can assure you that if you go to other parts of the world they drink as much, if not more than we do. It tends to be certain groups of society though - the Americans have huge problems with the Afro-Americans, the Australians with the Aboriginals, the NZ with the Maori etc. But of course, this is swept under the carpet and from your ivory tower you probably dont see it...
I very rarely hear of other people commenting on our drinking habits, and can assure you that if you go to other parts of the world they drink as much, if not more than we do. It tends to be certain groups of society though - the Americans have huge problems with the Afro-Americans, the Australians with the Aboriginals, the NZ with the Maori etc. But of course, this is swept under the carpet and from your ivory tower you probably dont see it...
You're taking the piss tbh. Our drinking culture is notorious and even if other countries drank more it doesn't make it any less of a problem. One of the saddest sights I see is when I'm in the supermarket and the amount of alcohol people buy, it depresses me. And yes I am miserable about it, I see it controlling many people's lives, and killing people close to me, yet people play it down and tell me I'm a killjoy or a spoilsport? Alcohol is a hard drug, yet we get a pass to abuse it. Post on Facebook about waking up in your own vomit after a party where you injected heroin and people will think you have serious problems. Do the same but from alcohol and you'll probably get about 10 people click 'like' and call you a legend for it.
Scroll through your Facebook news feed and look at the amount of mavericks who post about how "messy" they got last night.
Abusing alcohol is glorified and actually encouraged here amongst the majority of young people. Older people don't glorify it as much but that's probably down to them being alcoholics by then.
A MALAWI campaigner has told Scotland to keep its £9million African aid cash - and use it to improve conditions here.
Top journalist Mabvuto Banda was stunned to see the levels of booze and drug abuse during an eight-day trip north of the border.
He said the number of people who die daily from booze-related illness in Scotland is comparable to the number of people who die from HIV or Aids in Malawi.
Top journalist Mabvuto Banda was stunned to see the levels of booze and drug abuse during an eight-day trip north of the border.
He said the number of people who die daily from booze-related illness in Scotland is comparable to the number of people who die from HIV or Aids in Malawi.
http://www.cpfc.org/forums/showthread.php?t=188902
http://www.guardian.co.uk/healthcare-network/2012/feb/01/alcohol-abuse-crisis-point-britain
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/britains-alcohol-problem-our-green-and-drunken-land-397057.html
I will try and be as rational as possible on this very complex issue, but here are my views. I mostly want to 'test' them with people so it'll be interesting to hear feedback. I will, however, be brief because I don't want to write an essay.
1) People have to speak English in England, forget the culture argument, we have to be able to properly communicate. The reason it is offensive not to learn English is because it indicates an unwillingness to even communicate with the current population; showing that their goal is only material.
2) Natural consequences of mass immigration are 'hubs' of a certain community. This is evident everywhere in the world, and yes, including English 'hubs' right across the world whether it is Spain, Germany or India. People naturally seek comfort and security. My girlfriend recently moved to England to be with me, she is yearning to meet people from her native country because people just get home-sick; I know I would be the same.
3) However, these hubs aren't a good idea. Mass migration is a negative policy. Immigration is great, we import and export ideas. Mass immigration, however, allows large influxes to move and build a large community rather quickly. This means instead of the cultures of Scandinavia, South Africa, Pakistan, Brazil and so forth, being weaved into society they become blocs. Not because they hate British people, but because of the point raised in 2). The consequence of these hubs are segregationo and alienation. We soon see that natives resent these communities, which mean no harm. We percieve them as "keeping us out" when really all they want is to "keep a little bit of home with them". We turn on them, they turn on us, "our" community begins to reject them and "theirs" begins to reinforce itself. After a few years we have a designated area where "you go" and "they go"; languages seperated and all. The end result? Tension.
4) So even though no harm is ever meant, tension is the result. Neither side can be told they're wrong; it's not wrong for the English to not want to see "no go areas" and likewise it's silly to say to a foreign "when you come here, you leave everything behind..." The only way around it is to ease migration and to allow both foreign communities to retain a little of their culture just so they don't have to let go of everything - I mean that's fair right? I know if I went to, say, India I wouldn't want to just abandon everything English and forget who I was. At the same time, it's fair for the English to say, how about you share in with us too since we don't want to see ours eroded, just as you don't want to lose yours? Culture has to be weaved in, not dumped in huge chunks. Mass migration is not a culturally sustainable policy.
5) Whether or not you think people who react to this issue are bigots or fascists or whatever, you have to accept that a divide is being drawn. In the last election 1 million people voted for BNP; that's terrible. Closing our eyes and simply saying "nope, you're an idiot" doesn't help 1) the people of this country who do feel slighted and 2) the people who have come here with their families who are now under seige!
6) England has a culture; to suggest otherwise is silly. I feel that our culture is probably stronger than most other Europeans. I mean look at us! We're ridiculous (in a loveable way), our lawyers and judges still wear wigs, we crave tea for no real reason, we love our biscuits, we eat 1 meat 2 veg. We are a nation of people who are very calm and sit back and say "ah, the world is changing - we better see how this plays out before I decide what to say"; sometimes to our detriment, i.e Europe (we have to acknowledge that a Non-European economic policy in 2012 is like having a colonial foreign policy nowadays). The furniture we buy, the paintings we like, the T.V, the humour, the way we dress, the fact that we secretly say "oh that's ok" while thinking "God I hate you SO much!". I never really noticed we had much of a culture until I met my girlfriend and she would mock me for it. Her most used is how we say "If I may, could I please..." etc. It's the small stuff, the stuff we don't notice because we're living it - it's hard to have an objective view in a subjective matter.
7) The Human Rights Convention (and subsequent UK Act) is an amazing achivement. British lawyers had easily the heaviest role in drafting it. It reflects our values to the t, individuals are equal. There is no "oh let's sacrifice him for the common good", we say no, everyone is equal under these laws. Having it in a supranational court enables proper independent perspective. It also very rarely intervenes, in 2010 out of the nearly 2000 applications for review submitted, only 23 were head; only a handful disagreed with the UK. Sometimes cases aren't what we want to hear, like Qatada. However, we have to be morally above such people and cannot say "ah well, screw him!" and say "yes, you hate us but we wont turn our back on another human" and ask Jordan why it tortures people to obtain evidence - that's wrong and it's a principle I want to uphold, whoever it targets - bad or good. Sometimes challenges are tough, it means we evolve and learn from them; we can deport Qatada legally with proper assurances of a fair trial (MOUs), this is how we should pursue - if we want to maintain our claim to integrity.
8) last point. If the world submits to a concept of mass migration we will lose individuality of nations. One of the biggest reasons for the growth in ideas is because of the power of distinct 'individuals' passing their views. When Europe met Asia we exchanges ideas and we both created fantastic things, we swapped those ideas and so forth. If the world becomes a mash of different groups who are no longer distinct, there is no originality in thought; no differing perspetices to offer an "outside view" and inject an entirely different concept.
1) People have to speak English in England, forget the culture argument, we have to be able to properly communicate. The reason it is offensive not to learn English is because it indicates an unwillingness to even communicate with the current population; showing that their goal is only material.
2) Natural consequences of mass immigration are 'hubs' of a certain community. This is evident everywhere in the world, and yes, including English 'hubs' right across the world whether it is Spain, Germany or India. People naturally seek comfort and security. My girlfriend recently moved to England to be with me, she is yearning to meet people from her native country because people just get home-sick; I know I would be the same.
3) However, these hubs aren't a good idea. Mass migration is a negative policy. Immigration is great, we import and export ideas. Mass immigration, however, allows large influxes to move and build a large community rather quickly. This means instead of the cultures of Scandinavia, South Africa, Pakistan, Brazil and so forth, being weaved into society they become blocs. Not because they hate British people, but because of the point raised in 2). The consequence of these hubs are segregationo and alienation. We soon see that natives resent these communities, which mean no harm. We percieve them as "keeping us out" when really all they want is to "keep a little bit of home with them". We turn on them, they turn on us, "our" community begins to reject them and "theirs" begins to reinforce itself. After a few years we have a designated area where "you go" and "they go"; languages seperated and all. The end result? Tension.
4) So even though no harm is ever meant, tension is the result. Neither side can be told they're wrong; it's not wrong for the English to not want to see "no go areas" and likewise it's silly to say to a foreign "when you come here, you leave everything behind..." The only way around it is to ease migration and to allow both foreign communities to retain a little of their culture just so they don't have to let go of everything - I mean that's fair right? I know if I went to, say, India I wouldn't want to just abandon everything English and forget who I was. At the same time, it's fair for the English to say, how about you share in with us too since we don't want to see ours eroded, just as you don't want to lose yours? Culture has to be weaved in, not dumped in huge chunks. Mass migration is not a culturally sustainable policy.
5) Whether or not you think people who react to this issue are bigots or fascists or whatever, you have to accept that a divide is being drawn. In the last election 1 million people voted for BNP; that's terrible. Closing our eyes and simply saying "nope, you're an idiot" doesn't help 1) the people of this country who do feel slighted and 2) the people who have come here with their families who are now under seige!
6) England has a culture; to suggest otherwise is silly. I feel that our culture is probably stronger than most other Europeans. I mean look at us! We're ridiculous (in a loveable way), our lawyers and judges still wear wigs, we crave tea for no real reason, we love our biscuits, we eat 1 meat 2 veg. We are a nation of people who are very calm and sit back and say "ah, the world is changing - we better see how this plays out before I decide what to say"; sometimes to our detriment, i.e Europe (we have to acknowledge that a Non-European economic policy in 2012 is like having a colonial foreign policy nowadays). The furniture we buy, the paintings we like, the T.V, the humour, the way we dress, the fact that we secretly say "oh that's ok" while thinking "God I hate you SO much!". I never really noticed we had much of a culture until I met my girlfriend and she would mock me for it. Her most used is how we say "If I may, could I please..." etc. It's the small stuff, the stuff we don't notice because we're living it - it's hard to have an objective view in a subjective matter.
7) The Human Rights Convention (and subsequent UK Act) is an amazing achivement. British lawyers had easily the heaviest role in drafting it. It reflects our values to the t, individuals are equal. There is no "oh let's sacrifice him for the common good", we say no, everyone is equal under these laws. Having it in a supranational court enables proper independent perspective. It also very rarely intervenes, in 2010 out of the nearly 2000 applications for review submitted, only 23 were head; only a handful disagreed with the UK. Sometimes cases aren't what we want to hear, like Qatada. However, we have to be morally above such people and cannot say "ah well, screw him!" and say "yes, you hate us but we wont turn our back on another human" and ask Jordan why it tortures people to obtain evidence - that's wrong and it's a principle I want to uphold, whoever it targets - bad or good. Sometimes challenges are tough, it means we evolve and learn from them; we can deport Qatada legally with proper assurances of a fair trial (MOUs), this is how we should pursue - if we want to maintain our claim to integrity.
8) last point. If the world submits to a concept of mass migration we will lose individuality of nations. One of the biggest reasons for the growth in ideas is because of the power of distinct 'individuals' passing their views. When Europe met Asia we exchanges ideas and we both created fantastic things, we swapped those ideas and so forth. If the world becomes a mash of different groups who are no longer distinct, there is no originality in thought; no differing perspetices to offer an "outside view" and inject an entirely different concept.
(edited 12 years ago)
I can't say that I advocate the whole 'Make Britain British' thing because I think part of what makes the U.K. great is how it's a cultural hub, and has integrated different cultures from around the world into its own.
However, I do agree somewhat about your complaints about people not speaking English. My parents are ex-pats, so we relocated from Finland to England when I was very young. I went to a 'normal' school - by normal I mean it was not an international school - and picked up the language out of pure necessity. I don't think learning to speak English made me lose my national identity. It made it easier for me to learn more as well as communicate with others around me.
However, I do agree somewhat about your complaints about people not speaking English. My parents are ex-pats, so we relocated from Finland to England when I was very young. I went to a 'normal' school - by normal I mean it was not an international school - and picked up the language out of pure necessity. I don't think learning to speak English made me lose my national identity. It made it easier for me to learn more as well as communicate with others around me.
Original post by Wilfred Little
It's a myth thrown around by secretly racist Brits because they want their foreigners quiet and agreeable.
Go into any Asian owned shop and although their mother tongue might not be English, I guarantee they speak and understand English. How could you run a successful business serving English customers and not speak English? It doesn't make any sense.
I take it all of you people moaning about this mythical problem take it upon yourselves to learn the language of the country you go on holiday to before you leave? I didn't think so either.
Go into any Asian owned shop and although their mother tongue might not be English, I guarantee they speak and understand English. How could you run a successful business serving English customers and not speak English? It doesn't make any sense.
I take it all of you people moaning about this mythical problem take it upon yourselves to learn the language of the country you go on holiday to before you leave? I didn't think so either.
Good point.
--
I've never entered a shop in this country, where by the owner/person serving me cannot understand/speak English. Regardless of where they come from. Just because they're accent is different(well duh.. they weren't born here..) - doesn't mean they can't speak English.
Original post by Riderz
You sound like a miserable person.
I very rarely hear of other people commenting on our drinking habits, and can assure you that if you go to other parts of the world they drink as much, if not more than we do. It tends to be certain groups of society though - the Americans have huge problems with the Afro-Americans, the Australians with the Aboriginals, the NZ with the Maori etc. But of course, this is swept under the carpet and from your ivory tower you probably dont see it...
I very rarely hear of other people commenting on our drinking habits, and can assure you that if you go to other parts of the world they drink as much, if not more than we do. It tends to be certain groups of society though - the Americans have huge problems with the Afro-Americans, the Australians with the Aboriginals, the NZ with the Maori etc. But of course, this is swept under the carpet and from your ivory tower you probably dont see it...
Strange how you single out minorities here....I wonder what you're trying to say
I don't know much about Australians and Maori, but Afro American drinking culture is nothing like UK drinking culture - but I highly doubt you were trying to be objective anyway
There are just some immigrants who do not integrate - end of. All over the world. This doesn't make all immigrants bad, nor even most, just the minority. I dare you to go to southern Florida or certain parts of Texas and not see signs in Spanish.
Wherever there are a large influx of immigrants, they will ultimately bring their culture with them. This isn't something unique to Britain, nor a problem that only Britain is faced with.
However I'm with Spontological (above) I've never been in a shop where someone doesn't speak English. Leads me to believe that the OP is spouting quite a bit of rubbish.
Wherever there are a large influx of immigrants, they will ultimately bring their culture with them. This isn't something unique to Britain, nor a problem that only Britain is faced with.
However I'm with Spontological (above) I've never been in a shop where someone doesn't speak English. Leads me to believe that the OP is spouting quite a bit of rubbish.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by Wilfred Little
Exactly.
Stuff like this is why I identify more with my Nigerian side, I know people don't consider me one of "them". If you look through the thread it's evident.
Stuff like this is why I identify more with my Nigerian side, I know people don't consider me one of "them". If you look through the thread it's evident.
Hmm I kind know how you feel, I call myself British but I sometimes feel people don't see me as British irl and TSR because of my skin colour, so I am having a bit of an identity crisis! You made a good point about the drinking culture, it is a problem that many seem to be sweeping under the carpet. Some students are more concerned about getting alcohol than feeding themselves properly and I find this pretty sad. I don't think there is anything wrong with drinking in moderation but it is too much, there is so much pressure to conform and if you don't people think you are boring
.Original post by burgergetsbored
the only thing I really agree with is that if you're going to live in the UK you should learn English without a doubt. As said by others If I was going to live abroad I'd learn the language, out of respect and well why wouldn't you? It makes everything a whole lot easier
You are fogetting one important thing.
Other coutries make it difficult to live if you dont speak the local language.
We provide everything (state / tax payer funded) so that they dont have to learn English. e.g. translators etc.
Original post by T'archer
Move to Cheshire.
It is great in Cheshire (at least where I live).
99.999% White
100% of people speak English.
Feels like you are in England!
Original post by Zelex
I know the feeling. I am of Nigerian origin,and I have long accepted I will never be considered as a "true British" even though I was born and raised in England. I know its not all people who hold such views, but in the eyes many, I'm just another immigrant who does not contribut positively to society.
I'm Nigerian too, But I'm from Birmingham. My mum always told me to identify myself with Nigeria, because British people will never accept me.
Original post by Anonymous
It doesn't feel like England is actually English any more. At least not in certain cities. I'm surrounded by so many people who don't speak English, it feels like I'm a tourist in my own country. It makes me feel awkward and uneasy. I don't know what they are saying, nor why so many Europeans insist on shouting at each other, whilst the Asians shout at people on their phones. So many people come here and don't make the effort to integrate at all with our society, so subsequently it's getting washed out. England does have a culture, and people who come here should embrace it, not smother it with their cultures from other countries. It's not un-PC to reserve Englishness!
I hate going into a shop and not being understood. I'm English! If you have a job where you are working in England and speaking to English people then you should know English! Why can people like that get jobs when so many of our own can't get them - and no it's not laziness.
It's just really making me upset. I hate the people on here who complain about how **** England is, and have their flags as India or Ghana, but they would never actually live there. If you're English, you're English. If you hate this country, you can piss off.
Unfortunately anonymous because this is spurred on by my girlfriend and her family who keep insisting that I should learn their language. No, you're in England, you learn English!
I hate going into a shop and not being understood. I'm English! If you have a job where you are working in England and speaking to English people then you should know English! Why can people like that get jobs when so many of our own can't get them - and no it's not laziness.
It's just really making me upset. I hate the people on here who complain about how **** England is, and have their flags as India or Ghana, but they would never actually live there. If you're English, you're English. If you hate this country, you can piss off.
Unfortunately anonymous because this is spurred on by my girlfriend and her family who keep insisting that I should learn their language. No, you're in England, you learn English!
God forbid your anglo-saxon-roman-celtic-norse-irish-welsh-scottish-viking-norman-european etc. blood should be invaded by foreigners!!!
Original post by dgeorge
Strange how you single out minorities here....I wonder what you're trying to say
I don't know much about Australians and Maori, but Afro American drinking culture is nothing like UK drinking culture - but I highly doubt you were trying to be objective anyway
I don't know much about Australians and Maori, but Afro American drinking culture is nothing like UK drinking culture - but I highly doubt you were trying to be objective anyway
I single out minorities because they have a TERRIBLE drinking habit.
"The Steering Committee for the Review of Government Service Provision estimated that alcohol-related death rates were between five and 19 times higher for Indigenous Australians than for non-Indigenous Australians in Qld, SA, WA and the NT" http://www.healthinfonet.ecu.edu.au/health-risks/alcohol/reviews/our-review
"60 percent of Aboriginal Australian drinkers experience some alcohol-related harm." http://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/health/aboriginal-alcohol-consumption.html
Anyway, whatever. Ive been to these places, seen the effects, and IMO there is very little difference between the general drinking habits of UK citizens and foreign citizens. Some places are worse, some places are better. Could we improve? Undoubldy. Do we have have to let people make a choice about their own health? Yes. Are there more pressing issues than pushing up the price of beer in my local pub? Most definitely.
Original post by DavidTheYoung
England doesn't exist. England is a piece of rock in the North sea. It's a very nice rock to be fair, I like the rock, but it is just a rock. Share the rock, let other people onto the rock and then maybe we'll get over this whole "He's a different colour, he worships a different make believe friend from me, he speaks a different language to me".
I hope when you go on holiday you get angry at people who wear England football shirts and speak in English to the locals. But somehow I doubt it.
I hope when you go on holiday you get angry at people who wear England football shirts and speak in English to the locals. But somehow I doubt it.
I like this post. I don't wholly agree with it, but I like it.
Original post by Fraga
God forbid your anglo-saxon-roman-celtic-norse-irish-welsh-scottish-viking-norman-european etc. blood should be invaded by foreigners!!!
Not really what he was saying at all.
Original post by Wilfred Little
One of tne of the saddest sights I see is when I'm in the supermarket and the amount of alcohol people buy, it depresses me. And yes I am miserable about it, I see it controlling many people's lives, and killing people close to me, yet people play it down and tell me I'm a killjoy or a spoilsport?
Older people don't glorify it as much but that's probably down to them being alcoholics by then.
Older people don't glorify it as much but that's probably down to them being alcoholics by then.
You need more worries in your life. A child dies every 5 seconds from malnutrition. 10 people a day die on our roads. Every year 8,000 square miles - about the size of Wales - of rainforest is lost from the Amazon. Most rainforests around the world have lost over 90% of their pre-human size. We are going through the greatest period of mass extinction in the worlds history - bigger than when the dinosaurs became extinct - all thanks to human activity. And you can honestly say you're miserable about someone putting another crate of beer into their trolley at Tescos? Grow up mate...
Older people dont glorify it, but talk to any older person about how much they used to drink and then drive home on. Yes, they've gone past the time they can stay out til 2am in a nightclub, but dont think they didnt do it in their youth.
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