Ayrton Senna vs Michael Schumacher if Senna hadn't been killed
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Senna
His style was impetuous
His defence was impregnable
He's just ferocious
His style was impetuous
His defence was impregnable
He's just ferocious
Senna.
Always Senna.
Always Senna.
Original post by f1mad
This isn't about moral high ground- I've said this already:
"He is a gentleman but not as much as you guys are making out". You went on like he never got himself into any silly incidents
.
"He is a gentleman but not as much as you guys are making out". You went on like he never got himself into any silly incidents
.Lol who negged me? Why don't you debate what I'm saying rather than doing a stupid neg and hiding away?
Comon senna was good. But people was not saying back when he was alive that he was the greatest driver of all time. Only started saying that when he died.
He did have some amazing drives e.g. overtaking 5 cars on the first lap in the rain. He also had the human side of things where someone crashed their car and he stopped and got out his car to check make sure he was ok half way through a race. (racing drivers dont do that these days)
Schumacher on the other hand has achived a lot more... You can say if senna was still around blah blah blah but he was not. look at canada this year. no where near the best car on the track, the rain come down and the quality driver rose to up. He overtook everyone and was in second for part of the race, overtaking two cars on one corner. That is what you call the best of all time. When things go bad for you all season, then a oportunity comes up, you take it with both hands. That is exactly what he did in that situation and so many others.
He did have some amazing drives e.g. overtaking 5 cars on the first lap in the rain. He also had the human side of things where someone crashed their car and he stopped and got out his car to check make sure he was ok half way through a race. (racing drivers dont do that these days)
Schumacher on the other hand has achived a lot more... You can say if senna was still around blah blah blah but he was not. look at canada this year. no where near the best car on the track, the rain come down and the quality driver rose to up. He overtook everyone and was in second for part of the race, overtaking two cars on one corner. That is what you call the best of all time. When things go bad for you all season, then a oportunity comes up, you take it with both hands. That is exactly what he did in that situation and so many others.
Senna was a fantastic driver, but his peak was 1988-1991, before and after that he was a bit more variable. Schumacher was already reaching his peak by 1994, and won each of Senna's last three races. Schumacher then kept that standard for 10 years, which there's no reason to suggest he wouldn't have done had Senna lived.
Original post by Craig_D
Senna was a fantastic driver, but his peak was 1988-1991, before and after that he was a bit more variable. Schumacher was already reaching his peak by 1994, and won each of Senna's last three races. Schumacher then kept that standard for 10 years, which there's no reason to suggest he wouldn't have done had Senna lived.
Exactly this.
Too many people extrapolate by saying "oh he would've went to Ferrari...". They seem to forget Schumacher brought Brawn, Byrne and co over with him from Benetton.
Not to mention that Benneton was running illegal software that year too.
Original post by f1mad
Exactly this.
Too many people extrapolate by saying "oh he would've went to Ferrari...". They seem to forget Schumacher brought Brawn, Byrne and co over with him from Benetton.
Too many people extrapolate by saying "oh he would've went to Ferrari...". They seem to forget Schumacher brought Brawn, Byrne and co over with him from Benetton.
I've read this entire thread and you seem to have really mixed emotions. You also seem to really really love Schumacher to the point where you have a distorted image of him and other drivers of his level. You seem to completely forget the 1958 season where Stirling Moss was champion but gave that up because he felt Mike Hawthorne was penalized unfairly and outright dissed Stirling. Stirling is by far one of the greatest talents we have seen and you have no right in saying he is not comparable to drivers that have won a world championship. The only reason he was not as successful as others is because of the great Juan Manuel Fangio. Who is indeed a gentleman and won 5 championships in an age where most perished. It is not all about the statistics you do realize that right? That's why Gilles Villeneuve is considered better than Keke Rosberg and why Jim Clark is better than Nelson Piquet.
I'm not saying Schumacher is not one of the greatest of all time but he is far from being the fastest nor the most gentlemen-like. Senna proved he was faster than Schumacher when Senna got 3 poles in a car that was far from drivable, despite your claims that the FW16 was better than the Benetton. It was not until the FW16B that Williams was able to truly challenge Benetton and their traction control aided car. Yes they did have traction control, why else would the FIA have found it hidden on the computers while other teams deleted these systems. I find it weird that you would point out the Benetton was underpowered and avoid the fact that it had traction control and the fuel pump in the garage pumped fuel quicker. The only reason Schumacher was even close to Senna in qualifying was down to the traction control. During the race, the inconsistency of the FW16's handling was the main reason Senna was unable to outpace Schumacher. These are legitimate reasons as to why Schumacher was able to beat Senna. No ifs, no buts, Benetton was simply cheating.
If you don't believe the FW16 was a bad car this is a quote from Adrian Newey, "To be honest we made a bloody awful cock-up. The rear-end grip problem was purely a setup problem. We were learning about springs and dampers all over again after concentrating on active suspension for two years, whereas most people had been away for just one. We also had a rather silly aerodynamic problem—basically the front wing was too low—but that was raised for Imola, by which time we were looking in pretty good shape." Basically, Senna and Hill drove a horribly set-up, aerodynamically plagued car for the Brazilian and Pacific GP. It reflected on their driving where neither of the drivers where confident in the car. Hill took it cautiously and at a slow pace while Senna still pushed hard and paid the price with spin-outs and eventually his life.
IMO, Schumacher would've lost 94, maybe 95, 96 and 97 to Senna had he lived and stayed at Williams(coming back to the topic of the thread).
Schumacher every time.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Posted from TSR Mobile
No contest, Senna would've crushed everyone and definitely would've won the 94/95/96 drivers' titles with Willams. He'd have maybe stayed on at Williams in 1997, likely winning that season too.
Since Williams were on poor form in 1998, Senna would've gone back to Mclaren for 1998, as there's no way he'd have stayed at Williams after they lost the Renault engines. Senna would've easily adapted to the grooved tyres that came in for the 98 season, and as McLaren were so dominant that year he probably be winning another title.
He always said he wanted to finish his career at Ferrari, so he'd have moved there for 1999 and 2000, where I think he'd have won races but not another title. He'd have been in his late 30s by that stage, therefore would've retired as a 6, 7 or 8 times champion with over 100 wins,150+ poles and 10+ Monaco victories.
Since Williams were on poor form in 1998, Senna would've gone back to Mclaren for 1998, as there's no way he'd have stayed at Williams after they lost the Renault engines. Senna would've easily adapted to the grooved tyres that came in for the 98 season, and as McLaren were so dominant that year he probably be winning another title.
He always said he wanted to finish his career at Ferrari, so he'd have moved there for 1999 and 2000, where I think he'd have won races but not another title. He'd have been in his late 30s by that stage, therefore would've retired as a 6, 7 or 8 times champion with over 100 wins,150+ poles and 10+ Monaco victories.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Raving_Hippy
To anyone who watched F1 back in the 1990s, or if you're simply a fan of the history of F1, let's discuss a hypothetical situation.
If Ayrton Senna hadn't been killed at Imola in 1994, who would've come out on top in their epic battle that season and beyond?
Personally, I think Ayrton would've won at Imola and gone on to win the 1994 championship. I mean, if Damon Hill would almost win the championship then Ayrton would surely have won, since Hill was a slower driver than Ayrton.
I think it would've been one hell of a close season between them. I also think Senna would've won the 1995, 1996 and 1997 championships, possibly before going to Ferrari to finish his career. Perhaps Schuey wouldn't be the legend he is now if Senna had lived.
What do you think?
If Ayrton Senna hadn't been killed at Imola in 1994, who would've come out on top in their epic battle that season and beyond?
Personally, I think Ayrton would've won at Imola and gone on to win the 1994 championship. I mean, if Damon Hill would almost win the championship then Ayrton would surely have won, since Hill was a slower driver than Ayrton.
I think it would've been one hell of a close season between them. I also think Senna would've won the 1995, 1996 and 1997 championships, possibly before going to Ferrari to finish his career. Perhaps Schuey wouldn't be the legend he is now if Senna had lived.
What do you think?
Shouldn't the title be 'died' instead of "killed"??
Sent from my iPhone
Original post by joebloggs434
No contest, Senna would've crushed everyone and definitely would've won the 94/95/96 drivers' titles with Willams. He'd have maybe stayed on at Williams in 1997, likely winning that season too.
Since Williams were on poor form in 1998, Senna would've gone back to Mclaren for 1998, as there's no way he'd have stayed at Williams after they lost the Renault engines. Senna would've easily adapted to the grooved tyres that came in for the 98 season, and as McLaren were so dominant that year he probably be winning another title.
He always said he wanted to finish his career at Ferrari, so he'd have moved there for 1999 and 2000, where I think he'd have won races but not another title. He'd have been in his late 30s by that stage, therefore would've retired as a 6, 7 or 8 times champion with over 100 wins,150+ poles and 10+ Monaco victories.
Since Williams were on poor form in 1998, Senna would've gone back to Mclaren for 1998, as there's no way he'd have stayed at Williams after they lost the Renault engines. Senna would've easily adapted to the grooved tyres that came in for the 98 season, and as McLaren were so dominant that year he probably be winning another title.
He always said he wanted to finish his career at Ferrari, so he'd have moved there for 1999 and 2000, where I think he'd have won races but not another title. He'd have been in his late 30s by that stage, therefore would've retired as a 6, 7 or 8 times champion with over 100 wins,150+ poles and 10+ Monaco victories.
Rofl.
Original post by CB91
Rofl.
What?
Original post by Sidhant Shivram
What difference would it make if it said 'died' instead of 'killed'? He was killed in an accident so I think the title is ok.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Of course Michael. He is clever, hard-working, calm and calculating in race. De Silva was much more agressive, more risky, and his behavior provoked accidents. Ayrton was talanted, but Champion must be not only talanted - he must work with mechanics and engineeres, train a lot - and Shumacer was. That's Why he is one if the Greatest and Seven-titled.
I have always thought this, very glad someone else is saying it tooTrue but that's a point Senna could get wins or points from driving uncompetitive cars, ie The McClaren Ford at Donnington European Grand prix.
Original post by Raving_Hippy
To anyone who watched F1 back in the 1990s, or if you're simply a fan of the history of F1, let's discuss a hypothetical situation.
If Ayrton Senna hadn't been killed at Imola in 1994, who would've come out on top in their epic battle that season and beyond?
Personally, I think Ayrton would've won at Imola and gone on to win the 1994 championship. I mean, if Damon Hill would almost win the championship then Ayrton would surely have won, since Hill was a slower driver than Ayrton.
I think it would've been one hell of a close season between them. I also think Senna would've won the 1995, 1996 and 1997 championships, possibly before going to Ferrari to finish his career. Perhaps Schuey wouldn't be the legend he is now if Senna had lived.
What do you think?
If Ayrton Senna hadn't been killed at Imola in 1994, who would've come out on top in their epic battle that season and beyond?
Personally, I think Ayrton would've won at Imola and gone on to win the 1994 championship. I mean, if Damon Hill would almost win the championship then Ayrton would surely have won, since Hill was a slower driver than Ayrton.
I think it would've been one hell of a close season between them. I also think Senna would've won the 1995, 1996 and 1997 championships, possibly before going to Ferrari to finish his career. Perhaps Schuey wouldn't be the legend he is now if Senna had lived.
What do you think?
I know, it is been a while that the last post was submitted, but it is still worth to discuss. I personally have no doubts that Schumacher's fame were decreased, but perhaps his success. If Senna had lived, he and Schumacher had a head-to-head race in fighting for the championship in the years between 1995 and 1998, Senna would been the archrival, the number one competitor to defeat. Regard the named time span as Senna's possibly best one, as his peak of Formula 1 career. But the years after, Schumacher's time were come and had won the championships anyway.
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