The Student Room Group

Should the 'women and children first' rule still apply when a ship is sinking?

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Reply 280
Original post by tufc
So you claim that women and men are equal, but simultaneously claim that women are more important to children than men are?

I never said that, I do think mothers and fathers have an equal role to play. I merely said it would be the logical choice - and that is only because society reinforces this - the majority of people would say that a mother should stay with her child rather than the father.
Children should be prioritised for sure.

But as for women, no. All this rubbish about men having a better chance of surviving the conditions because they are 'physically stronger' than women (funny how this suddenly becomes a unanimously accepted truth when we're talking about sinking ships but is vehemently denied if someone suggests women require men to look after them in everyday life or in potentially dangerous situations etc) is exactly that, rubbish. A person's physical strength will have very little impact on their survival chances if we're using the Titanic scenario as an example. I don't care if Leonardo DiCaprio was 6'7" and built like a Mexican wrestler, he still wouldn't have survived in those temperatures for that long.

The best way I can think to explain it is like this:

Here is a scale from 1-10.

1-----2-----3-----4-----5-----6-----7-----8-----9-----10

Say that your physical state has to be at least 9 on the scale in order for you to survive. Let's say that children are at number 2 on the scale. Women are at number 5 (because apparently now we're all conceding that they are so much more physically frail than men) and men are at number 7, for the same reason. But although the men are further towards the survival threshold of 9 on account of their 'superior physical strength', and thus technically have a better chance of surviving the situation than women, they in effect do not have a better chance at all because the supposed difference in physical strength between the genders is insufficient to make such a difference as to allow men to survive where women would not.

Sorry if that was convaluted but it is the best way I can think to explain it.

There is not one logically valid reason why women should be prioritised over men in this situation.
Reply 282
women have on average more bodyfat than men, wouldn't that make them more bouyant and less likely to drown?
Original post by GnomeyD
I never said that, I do think mothers and fathers have an equal role to play. I merely said it would be the logical choice - and that is only because society reinforces this - the majority of people would say that a mother should stay with her child rather than the father.


The fact that it is reinforced by society does not mean that something is therefore logical.

Society generally feels that domestic violence committed against women is more serious and reprehensible than that committed against men - does that make it logical?

No, it does not.
Reply 284
Original post by Kenocide
The fact that it is reinforced by society does not mean that something is therefore logical.

Society generally feels that domestic violence committed against women is more serious and reprehensible than that committed against men - does that make it logical?

No, it does not.


I never said it was logical because of what society tells us to do. I personally think domestic violence is equally as bad whether it happens to men or women. I don't really understand why you're all bringing in these comparisons that aren't all that relevant - I said originally I find it offensive to be classed as vulnerable as a child, if I was on the boat then I would want as much right to a place on a lifeboat than a man. However when it comes to accompanying the children it makes sense for the mother to go because most self-respecting fathers would sacrifice themselves for the sake of their wife/mother of their child and their child. To be completely honest though, what has happened to good old chivalry? It's not unfeminist to expect courtesy from men or women.
Reply 285
Children should be put on lifeboats first with their mother (if not their fathers)
Not being funny but if i was on titanic i would of survived, Id of just throw every piece of furniture into the water and get on the ones that float or tie 4 barrels together and but a mattress on it and get me some blankets and I'm off
Reply 287
Original post by kuteascake
So, it's been 100 years since the Titanic sank and it's got me thinking. Is the 'women and children first' rule (which isn't always practiced or enforced when a ship is sinking anyway) outdated?

Personally, it strikes me as kind of sexist- why should a woman's life be worth more than that of a man? Us girls are constantly complaining that we still aren't treated as complete equals to men, but surely things like this unwritten rule are hindering our achievement of equality?

I know that if I were on board a sinking ship, I'd give up my space on a lifeboat for somebody else, but I wonder how many others actually would?

Anyway, I'm just interested to know what you guys think; should it be every man for himself, the most vulnerable first or should the captain still order men to step aside for women and children?

Discuss :biggrin:


Everyone has a right to life, pursuant to Article of the European Convention of Human Rights which stipulates: "Everyone’s right to life shall be protected by law …". Therefore, this article ovverdides the rule of "women and child first"
Reply 288
I'd think about it if women we viewed in a more equal way in normal everday life, say with wages.
My order of loading a lifeboat

1. A few crewmen who know what they're doing to man the boat
2. Families with small children (say less than 12)
3. Other family groups if there is room for them all aboard together
4. Frail, physically impaired etc
5. Other passengers
6. If there are any remaining spots crew can come aboard

The claims that women are weaker than men only hold so much water. If you're faced by a dip in freezing cold water, both will die fairly quickly regardless of strength. If anything women last slightly longer due to additional body fat.
Original post by Zhin
I'd think about it if women we viewed in a more equal way in normal everday life, say with wages.



-In Womens Tennis pay is equal despite men playing for longer and bringing in 90% of the money
-Women get custody of children in 93% of divorces and as a result men are forced to pay for that child when often being denied access to them
-Women in the army are kept out of the front line so 99.9% deaths during times of war are men
-95% of work place deaths are men
-Men accused of rape are named and shamed if the female lied she is still given life long annonymity.
-On dates men are usually expected to pay for everything
-Male On Female abuse is condemed (rightly so) while Female on Male Violence is laughed and joked about
-80% to 90% of street homeless people are men
-Men in general are given longer prison sentences than woman for commiting the same crime and mens prisons are much harsher.
-When woman are laughed at my men in the media there is an outcry (see Andy Gray and Richard Keyes) yet when Woman bash men (see loose women) it's perfectly fine.
-Objectification - Media pretends that only men slaver over the opposite sex and slam us for it yet when woman slaver over the likes of David Beckham half naked it's seen as perfectly acceptable.
-Retirment Age - 5 Years later for men despite Women living longer in general
-Schoolchildren rape - When male teachers have sex with girls he is seen as a paedo freak and the girl is a victim yet when a female teachers has sex with boys the boy is seen as lucky.
-Men on average work longer hours than women

So even if men are paid more they also suffer more than women we work longer hours and work in more dangerous conditions and women between the ages of 18 and 29 now earn more on average than men.
(edited 11 years ago)
Reply 291
Original post by Shabalala
-In Womens Tennis pay is equal despite men playing for longer and bringing in 90% of the money
-Women get custody of children in 93% of divorces and as a result men are forced to pay for that child when often being denied access to them
-Women in the army are kept out of the front line so 99.9% deaths during times of war are men
-95% of work place deaths are men
-Men accused of rape are named and shamed if the female lied she is still given life long annonymity.
-On dates men are usually expected to pay for everything
-Male On Female abuse is condemed (rightly so) while Female on Male Violence is laughed and joked about
-80% to 90% of street homeless people are men
-Men in general are given longer prison sentences than woman for commiting the same crime and mens prisons are much harsher.
-When woman are laughed at my men in the media there is an outcry (see Andy Gray and Richard Keyes) yet when Woman bash men (see loose women) it's perfectly fine.
-Objectification - Media pretends that only men slaver over the opposite sex and slam us for it yet when woman slaver over the likes of David Beckham half naked it's seen as perfectly acceptable.
-Retirment Age - 5 Years later for men despite Women living longer in general
-Schoolchildren rape - When male teachers have sex with girls he is seen as a paedo freak and the girl is a victim yet when a female teachers has sex with boys the boy is seen as lucky.
-Men on average work longer hours than women

So even if men are paid more they also suffer more than women we work longer hours and work in more dangerous conditions and women between the ages of 18 and 29 now earn more on average than men.


Well, I guess I stand corrected.
Though I have to say, nearly eVeryone takes the piss out of Loose Women, just saying! xD
Original post by Patriot Rich
My order of loading a lifeboat

1. A few crewmen who know what they're doing to man the boat
2. Families with small children (say less than 12)
3. Other family groups if there is room for them all aboard together
4. Frail, physically impaired etc
5. Other passengers
6. If there are any remaining spots crew can come aboard

The claims that women are weaker than men only hold so much water. If you're faced by a dip in freezing cold water, both will die fairly quickly regardless of strength. If anything women last slightly longer due to additional body fat.



Titanic Situation (with no help coming)
-Why should adults who have already re produced and had children who will carry on the family line get to live while late teens and early 20 year olds who haven't had that chance be condemed to die the chances are that the children will have other family members on land. Or why should elderly people be given seats when they have already had the chance to live their life while a young person again be condemed to death. And why should a crew member who wan't involved in the acciddent be condemed to death aswell just becuse his place of work happened to be sinking.

The only real fair way to do it would be the youngest passengers go aboard the life boats so more years of life would be saved but this would be impossible to achieve so the only way to do it would be first come first serve if someone wan't to give up their seats they can.

Non Titanic Situation (with help or land nearby)

-Elderly, Disbaled, Children and people who cannot swim regardless of gender should be given priority. People who are in better condition (i.e late teens, 20's, early 30's) should be last off as they can survive longer and could swin to shore.

TO PEOPLE SAYING MEN ARE STRONGER
Yes in general men are stronger but it doesn't make a difference women have more body fat and are proven to be able to tolerate more pain and to tolerate more extreme temperatures than men can so will be able to survive longer in freezing water strength has no effect on survival in freezing water
(edited 11 years ago)
Reply 293
Original post by kuteascake

I know that if I were on board a sinking ship, I'd give up my space on a lifeboat for somebody else, but I wonder how many others actually would?

It's ridiculous to think "I would do that in this dramatic situation" while you've not yet been in a sinking boat.... It's situation so extreme that you can't guess what would your reactions....
What will be your reactions when your mother will die ? Impossible to answer this question without be confronted.

Original post by internet tough guy
As for children, well maybe there is a case for them because you can fit more of them in one life boat,


ahah great answer. I never thinking about that !
(edited 11 years ago)
I asked someone this same question the other day.
I woz told well there would be enough life boats for everyone these days so it shouldnt really be an issue. Do they still have the women and children first?
Everyones equal in my eyes :smile:
Reply 295
omg. youz all should die in a fire.
Reply 296
Original post by kittycat82
I asked someone this same question the other day.
I woz told well there would be enough life boats for everyone these days so it shouldnt really be an issue. Do they still have the women and children first?
Everyones equal in my eyes :smile:


In the world which have more men than women, I believe that the deaths of men are less importants than women. But maybe I'm wrong....
Whoever gets to the boats first should get on first imo. There should be enough for everyone, if people didnt cause mass panic then maybe everyone would have a chance of survival?
I know its human nature to panic in situations such as a ship sinking but in an ideal world.....
Reply 298
Original post by Playa10
Yes because a woman can reproduce without a man



Newcastle on Tyne University has found that it may be possible to create sperm from women's bone marrow, effectively erasing any need for a male contribution to the reproductive process. (Not yet happended but it's possible)
Reply 299
Original post by Soph(:
Newcastle on Tyne University has found that it may be possible to create sperm from women's bone marrow, effectively erasing any need for a male contribution to the reproductive process. (Not yet happended but it's possible)


As certainly it's possible to create an environment favorable to the creation of human race other than woman.... :biggrin:

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