GOGSoc Episode V: The GOG Strikes Back

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We had to put every single essay through Turnitin. Weird how its not consistent across departments.

In other news, I have a suitably ****y dissertation title. With obligatory colon :biggrin:

Reply 1081

apotoftea

Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi

Well the person marking the stuff will knock them down and if they aren't good enough to do the work then their exams will be shoddy.

But the majority of degree courses are modular with what one or two exams a year, so those who do plagiarise won't be caught out.

I know of people who were pulled up over it on my BA. MA wise - they only put our dissertation through TurnItIn. But I think they did use it on the undergraduate course.

Reply 1082

The Lyceum

Cheaters/plagiarists should be forced to undergo bouts of autokoprasphyxiation. Problem solved. During their graduation ceremonies.

Reply 1083

sj27

Original post by The Lyceum

Cheaters/plagiarists should be forced to undergo bouts of autokoprasphyxiation. Problem solved. During their graduation ceremonies.

I have no idea what that is but I like the sound of it. :devil:

Reply 1084

hobnob

Original post by sj27

I have no idea what that is but I like the sound of it. :devil:

That's because you have no idea what it is... :p:

Reply 1085

obi_adorno_kenobi

Original post by sj27

YMMV. I got cheated out of a subject prize by someone who I know cheated in the exam. I'm sure it wouldn't've changed my life, but it still rankles.

YMMV?

Yes and I watch people who cribbed notes from me and wrote their essays the morning before a tute get raised to scholars because of the whim of a tutor so we all have our own anecdotes of rankle. I'm just not certain that university departments will wish to expend a great deal of time trying to extinguish the inextinguishable.

And you're alright with all that then? If you can't beat 'em join 'em? :colonhash:

I'm not alright with the notion that we have a capitalist-materialist society, no, but what exactly are we able to do other than complain?

Reply 1086

obi_adorno_kenobi

Original post by apotoftea

But the majority of degree courses are modular with what one or two exams a year, so those who do plagiarise won't be caught out.

They're caught out by the marker of the term paper / written assignment who marks them down for being a cheater. No real need to make a big song and dance out of something that can be solved by the quick swish of a red pen.

Reply 1087

hobnob

Anyway, regarding the anti-plagiarism thing, surely feeding essays through Turnitin (which most universities do) doesn't actually solve the question of what to do when you actually catch somebody plagiarising? All Turnitin does is to flag up iffy passages that can then be checked more thoroughly, but it's still up to the department to decide whether / how to act on that information. :dontknow:

Reply 1088

sj27

Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi

But the point being made by Cirsium was that this isn't happening.

Reply 1089

obi_adorno_kenobi

Original post by sj27

But the point being made by Cirsium was that this isn't happening.

She's marking the things isn't she? If it isn't happening then that's her fault. If she is marking the things and those marks are registered but is merely complaining about the lack of follow up on the issue of plagiarism (through tribunals and so on) by senior colleagues then I'm afraid I have little sympathy. I found a few cases of plagiarism when I marked papers for my classes. I put it down to the fact that the university doesn't teach writing and research skills very well in the first term. I took some marks off for not referencing properly and left it at that. Either they learn how to get a paper done or they keep on losing marks.

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 1090

sj27

Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi

I'm just not certain that university departments will wish to expend a great deal of time trying to extinguish the inextinguishable.

I'm just not getting this point of view. Surely it's the same principle as laws against...whatever? You're never going to stop people stealing, committing fraud, insider trading etc either but laws against these things are seen as worthwhile, and by catching some of them and doing something about it, it should act as a deterrent to at least some others.

Reply 1091

obi_adorno_kenobi

Original post by sj27

I'm just not getting this point of view. Surely it's the same principle as laws against...whatever?

No, it's not the same (but more on that in a moment). It's a matter of how you deal with it, anyway: make a song and dance as so many in the thread wish to do or mark them down, explain why you did, and encourage them to learn better ways of writing essays. Retribution or justice, if we carry your metaphor over.

You're never going to stop people stealing, committing fraud, insider trading etc either but laws against these things are seen as worthwhile, and by catching some of them and doing something about it, it should act as a deterrent to at least some others.

The examples you provide here are crimes against other people, that's the major difference. Plagiarism in an undergraduate essay isn't a crime against anyone in particular, it's a failing of the individual to do their work properly. Some may not realise that they're doing it; others will do it deliberately because they have left their essay to the last minute or they're simply too lazy to reference properly. In the end the infraction is against their own success.

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 1092

sj27

Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi

I specifically mentioned insider trading because it can be classed in the same vein as cheating. It's not a crime against anyone in particular, and it may appear that other people don't get hurt, but actually they do. If these things are just left rampant, trust in the system breaks down. I guess this is exactly the reason why some other posters have mentioned that people have been excluded from courses because of this.

Anyway, am now taking a break to go celebrate my wedding anniversary, at a retro cinema and a little Italian neighborhood restaurant :smile:

Reply 1093

obi_adorno_kenobi

Original post by sj27

Well if you're assuming that I see insider trading as a "victimless" crime then you'd be very much mistaken. That's why I left it lumped in with the other ones.

Reply 1094

obi_adorno_kenobi

Original post by Athena

I think the problem is that she would like to penalise much more harshly than the university marking scheme will allow her (or possibly she's asked 'how much should I penalise?' and the university said 'not at all'). I think if I'd ever plagiarised for an essay and been caught, I would have been in unbelievably deep **** :/

Oh absolutely but the reason we've gone as far as we have in academia is precisely because we wouldn't plagiarise willingly or at all. I'd just work within the structures the university have in place rather than trying to change them: person plagiarises in an attempt to get a 2.1, give them a 3rd. That's what I did / would do again.

Reply 1095

Drogue

Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi

Well if you're assuming that I see insider trading as a "victimless" crime then you'd be very much mistaken. That's why I left it lumped in with the other ones.

Who's the victim? Insider trading isn't victimless, as it harms the efficiency of the market, but it doesn't directly harm another individual, it does it indirectly. Just as plagiarism doesn't directly harm anyone else, but it does harm people indirectly by harming the system as a whole.

Having said that, I agree with you that plagiarism is often overblown as a problem and most of it is best dealt with by the market docking marks than by further action. Though when it's been blatant - someone copying a paragraph or more wholesale without attribution - I've no issue with harsher action being taken. Though, as Athena mentions, the issue here seems to be that the marker isn't allowed to dock enough marks or punish appropriately, and the university won't take action either.

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 1096

obi_adorno_kenobi

Original post by Drogue

Well other people's jobs is what I had in mind but it doesn't really matter in the grand scale of this discussion.

Though, as Athena mentions, the issue here seems to be that the marker isn't allowed to dock enough marks or punish appropriately, and the university won't take action either.

Depends on what is thought by "enough marks". Not giving an essay above a third is sufficiently harsh in most cases I would have thought.

Reply 1097

Drogue

Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi

Depends on what is thought by "enough marks". Not giving an essay above a third is sufficiently harsh in most cases I would have thought.

I agree, but I'm not sure if Cirsium was allowed to give them thirds because of the plagiarism.

Reply 1098

obi_adorno_kenobi

Original post by Drogue

I agree, but I'm not sure if Cirsium was allowed to give them thirds because of the plagiarism.

That's the bit I don't understand, a mark scheme is a mark scheme and presumably if someone has used material without referencing properly then that's not going to be worthy of very high marks. You shouldn't have to ask to award a third if the work isn't worth a 2.2!

Reply 1099

wes

Original post by IlexAquifolium

Well, copying in an exam would be pretty bad too, in that they would both be an attempt to fraudulently obtain a degree of the back of other people's work/ideas. Do you not think both are quite serious? :confused:

Original post by sj27

You can't be serious. Do you think either of these is OK?

Whatever happened to the notion of integrity?

Original post by hobnob

Obviously they're both equally bad, but I'd say one of the reasons why people get worked up over plagiarism is the discrepancy in the way they're being punishe. When someone gets caught copying in a university exam, he'll fail that exam - which makes perfect sense. Whereas when somebody is caught plagiarising in a piece of coursework, outright fails are much rarer, except in extreme cases. A lot of departments just seem to turn a blind eye.
Edit: Also, you could argue that copying in an exam is opportunism, whereas plagiarism is calculated deception.

Well, I'm not in favour of plagiarism or exam cheating, obviously, but it seems like the latter is generally accepted as a fact of life and not worth doing anything about (I'm talking about university, not schools where exams are supervised rigorously), whereas the former appears to be akin to grevious bodily harm/genocide.