The Martial Arts Society

Thanks for your comment!
It was factual and reasoned.

Nevertheless, Self defense has a lot of techniques to don't hurt the aggressor hard. Thtat's why I think it's still the best to defend yourself.

Surely if you were attacked you would want to incapacitate your opponent by breaking a limb, knocking them out etc you don't want to be messing around doing locks or something. A single well placed roundhouse will finish most fights.

How do you suppose to break someone's limb(s) without a joint lock? Also, LOL @ suggesting a roundhouse kick for self-defense.

This, haha.

If I got involved in a street fight I would probably just get in nice and tight, throw a bunch of elbows and maybe clinch if it went any further and just end it with knees/elbows.

No point trying anything flashy. It's almost certain that the guy trying to start a fight has no idea how to fight in a clinch so it's pretty risk free.

The only time I've ever used my training in a real life situation was when some scrawny chav snatched for my laptop bag as the train was stopping. I was sat down. I grabbed his sleeve, pulled him into an open guard and belly-down armbarred him. Brutalized his arm, though I don't think it broke. He wasn't exactly a threat, nor was he technically attacking me but a man's laptop is sacred, haha.

Legally what you described is assault or at least abh - with a potential maximum sentence of 5 years in prison, just so you know.
Personally i would only use martial arts techniques if i or someone else was in some danger.

You've got a right to defend your property.

How do you suppose to break someone's limb(s) without a joint lock? Also, LOL @ suggesting a roundhouse kick for self-defense.

Haha whatever mate I know you just want to get guys on the ground.

I'm 183cm tall and weigh 98kg at a reasonably lean 15%BF. I lift weights (mainly kettlebells) and do cardio - I take every conditioning class at my gym as well as training MAs for about 12 hours a week. I'm not at all saying that size and strength don't come into the equation. But after a certain point technique and ability trump it IMO - in a straight up fight I'd put my money on Ronda Rousey, Kyra Gracie or Gina Carano against some male rugby player or weightlifting champ with no martial arts training (and no a rugby tackle is not the same as a morote gari/double ledg takedown before you say that). Take a look at the fight between Professor Pedro Sauer (a skinny, short guy with a black belt in BJJ and Judo) who was about 162lbs and 1992s MR Utah who was 250lbs of muscle with no MA training - it was a hard fight but Sauer nearly broke the guy's arm and generally controlled the fight.

Why would I personally avoid the clinch when my clinchwork is probably better than 99.99% of the general population? And if you can't take them down for some reason then armdrag > take the back > rear naked choke is simple and doesn't require you to throw their weight around. Similarly guard pull into an immediate sweep is brilliant on guys who have very weight but no balance - not that I'd ever advocate pulling guard except as a last resort, obviously. Living in Iceland there are quite a few guys who come in to our gym who are very tall and very big - I have no problem throwing, taking down, or controlling them in the clinch (or on the ground). Little Japanese guys like Mitsuyo Maeda were throwing professional strongmen around like ragdolls when they did exhibition tours of Europe and America. When you are at high level of skill strength and size only becomes much of an issue when the person you are fighting matches or is close to matching your skill.

I didnt really need to know your vital statistics thanks, of course skill is the most important thing in a one on one fight - wasnt referring to that- simply your theory about someone specialising in taking people to the floor or clinching, this being such a basic principle in many sports, such as rugby, people are trained for such.

I have trained with bigger guys than myself frequently, i found my advantage was i was generally far quicker than them, with the exception of perhaps 2 people i know, which made applying techniques far easier to these guys than someone smaller and more agile. This is far more important than how much weight you shovel in a gym. And i wasnt talking about strongmen in iceland - i was talking about proper pro and semi-pro rugby players than train specific areas including quad and core strength involved in staying on feet when two 18 stone guys are trying to bring you down. Their balance is far superior to most athletes you will meet. By clinching with these guys you are playing exactly to their strength, regardless on how good you think your clinch work is.

most un-trained people would fancy themselves against you than say, a quality boxer with good footwork that would they would never even get close to, but still taking fast punches -you deliberatly allow them to get in close, which is sporting combat principle, oppossite of the self defence principle. equally you are referring to 'strength' which is useful for moving heavy objects - im talking about power - which is useful in fighting, they arnt the same thing.

Ive no interest in discussin with you what you do in judo school lol, as ive said numerous times before, this is about as far from real-life i could imagine and ignores so many real-life factors its laughable. for grappling competiton its fine.

'clinching' and 'takedowns' in rugby are nothing like martial arts clinching and takedowns. Rugby players aren't trained for clinching, they're trained for mauls which don't require a huge amount of technical skill and work different parts of the body, involving numerous people etc. If you put a rugby player in a muay thai clinch they'll look like a fish out of water, they aren't trained for it and won't know how to defend it. Similarly, if you attempt a throw or a takedown on a rugby player they won't know how to defend properly. Tackling in rugby involves a tacking a fast, forward moving person who isn't focusing so much on not being taken down than he is making ground. Rugby players may have better balance than most (though I'd argue that they don't really, since they aren't specifically trained for that at all) but if you don't know how to defend certain techniques it doesn't matter how good your balance is, you just won't see what's coming.

You're not noting the important difference that when rugby players tackle or clinch, they're looking to steal the ball from the opponent. In martial arts you're looking to hurt them or put them on the floor whilst they work fully on trying to defend it. No rugby player learns takedown defence or what to do to escapes holds or thai clinches.

einheri was specifically talking about use of clinches - not 'hurting people' obviously there are various other martial arts techniques designed specifically to hurt people. and again obviously there are throws, hooks and trips used to bring people down, but rugby players train vigourously in standing up to far stronger and heavier guys than you trying to bring them down, rarely is it about 'stealing the ball'- and so their natural lower down strenght will give them an advantage in staying up while you expend energy trying to topple them. If you see a rubgy player mauling for a ball he has to stay on his feet while reaching down for the ball despite 2 or 3 guys trying lift his legs away or to pull him down. If any non martial arts training was suitable for anti-judo, its this. I owuld suggest if you tried holding a rugby player in a 'thai clinch', they would just ram their head into your face.

Rugby players train for something more akin to sumo wrestling in that situation. A maul is purely about strength, balance doesn't come into it so much, especially because most people in mauls are being held up by their opponents and teammates.

Again, you're missing the point, rugby players train to not be tackled by other rugby players while running to get passed them. The situation isn't at all like a one on one combat situation.

Also, people don't reach down in a maul... you might be thinking of a ruck, and even that isn't particularly true. Another classic case of 'I don't know what i'm talking about and like to pretend I do'.

Firstly, I'm not going to take your thoughts on Judo with any seriousness whatsoever, given that you've already said how you thought it was a ground-based martial art. Secondly, what rugby players do is horrible against judo fighters. Rugby players have one direction, forward, if you push forward you're going to get thrown VERY easily. Rugby players aren't used to having to redirect their balance, they're used to over-powering their opponent/s.

Lolwut, headbutt someone from a thai clinch? A real thai clinch wouldn't allow that since you'd have complete control of their head and neck, not to mention your elbows would physically block a headbutt since they act like a pincer. If you do try and lunge forward you're going to put yourself off balance in which case you can easily swing them off balance and land an easy knee right into the face and that will knock them unconscious. I'd suggest you do some research before making random judgements since you clearly know nothing about judo, muay thai or even rugby XD

No , i didnt say 'headbut' -thats what you said- again, thats you not understanding simple terms involved in fighting. I said ram his head into your face - this is a different technique found in martial arts too, it involves driving the top of your skull into the face/jaw of someone taller than you that is trying to force your head down. A rugby player with strong neck and good quads will be able to do this easily to break your thai clinch - which is why a proper thai boxer wouldnt try to clinch a much stronger guy as you describe, and shows you dont have a clue what you are talking about ie a typical keyboard warrior.
I spar with muay thai guys all the time, but talking to you is like talking to a beginner.

'they would just ram their head into your face.' - the definition of a headbutt.

Stop trying to pretend you said anything else, what you said was clearly a headbutt. Either way, it's irrelevant. A thai fighter who knows what he's doing, or really anyone with solid clinching experience will have a strong enough grip and good enough technique to block that sort of ridiculous move you just described. As I said previously, the elbows/forearms act like a pincer on the neck, very little movement can be made at the neck, not nearly enough for a headbutt. The only way to escape a proper clinch is through good technical escapes, not brute force. As soon as you move your head forward you're off balance and they'll swing you to the side or pull you backwards and you'll have a knee in your face. You don't understand the basic mechanics of a proper thai clinch. Everything you say is just a simplistic 'hurr, just hit him with the head' like some magical way of fighting against a clinch that requires decades of experience to master. No one without thai clinch experience will be able to escape against a proper thai boxer, they don't have the technique.

You keep going on about your experience and 'sparring' and how I'm an 'keyboard warrior' but I'M the only one using logic and describing techniques and how they would work. On the other hand, YOU are the one who basically pulls 'techniques' or scenarios out of nothing (people with strong necks can just 'power out' of thai clinches etc.). YOU are the one who said that someone who plays rugby will have enough clinch experience to avoid being destroyed in a clinch by a thai fighter. And finally, YOU are the one who earlier claimed in this thread that Judo was a ground-based martial art. Now am I the keyboard warrior here or are you?

EDIT:

Just FYI, a maul is where the ball is held up and the players try and rip the ball from the other team. The ball isn't on the ground, it's held in a player's hand. There's no reaching down. I used to play rugby, I know.

EDIT:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KcCu13AJY4

This is a maul. That's an awful way to counter judo. You're leaning on your opponents, no balance at all. You'd be MORE easily thrown if someone tried that on you.

If youd played rugby at all, youd have known you can only use FEET in a Ruck, using hands is an automatic penalty

A Maul allows you can reach down to a ball that is in the hands of a downed player, whilst standing your feet. This takes a great deal of leg and back strength particualrly when you could have the equivalent of 20 stones of rugby player pushing you down.

I didnt say 'a maul was a way to counter judo' i used it as an example to dmeonstrate functional strength in a rugby player - despite techniques used, becasue judo is a sporting activity, it still relies heavily too on strength and fitness i grappling- exactly the traits of a semi pro rugby player. A proper martial artist would recognise this fact.

And again ididnt say rugby players have 'clinch experience' - the clinch is a simplistic technique at best trying to throw your opponent off balance - whilst rugby players dont train this, they do train maintaining footing and balance with 19 stone forwards trying lift their legs away from all angles- it is perfectly applicable to some judo kid like you trying to bring them to the floor.

There are a number of variations of striking in close combat with the head - which is why i dont like talking with basic judo ppl lke yourself who have no concept of proper combat techniques. You would have never experienced this becuase presuambley its outlawed in judo. Dont invade a conversation with ignorance, unless you are willing to go away and least do a little research.

And finally - you clearly are a complete beginner in terms of thai boxing if you think a thai boxer would attempt to control a far larger rugby player in a head clinch- or that such a player that can comfortably shift double your full weight on his traps in a scrum, couldnt power out of your clinch round the back of his head. The ignorance of that comment is almost laughable.

So yes, you have made it abundantly clear that you are a simple keyboard warrior, and its embarrasing just to talk to you quite frankly. Is there any subject that you have even a little knwoledge on?

In Judo you use your opponents strength against them. If someone pushes forward on you, you let their strength do the work with a throw. Strength doesn't come that much into it. It's all about a shift in balance. If you're using too much strength it's probably due to bad technique. Strength and fitness isn't particularly relevant. I've trained with people who were smaller, weaker and less fit than I am and they've tossed me around and made me their little bitch simply because they had excellent skill. I regularly train with rugby players/ex-rugby players and they often get dominated because they rely purely on strength which doesn't work in Judo against someone with skill.

Whoa, whoa, I'm talking about a thai clinch in this situation. Thai clinching is not 'simplistic' at all. It's been developed over thousands of years and is actually quite complex and requires a lot of experience to handle expertly. Let's think up some scenarios. A thai boxer grabs your next, squeezes his forearms together, what do you do? Ok, let's try reaching up to his arms... BANG, knee to the solar-plexus. How about going for your 'head attack' move, you push forward, he drags you to the side and plants a knee on your face. He goes for a cross arm (a legitimate escape, maybe he somewhat knows what he's doing) but he's too slow and imprecise, the thai fighter reaches to the other side of the head and plants a knee on his ribs.

It's the same thing. You don't have the space to move your head properly, and if you do you'll be dragged off balance. Muay Thai was originally developed for pure combat, it's effective against people trying to headbutt you. You obviously don't understand the thai clinch so i'll explain it to you. In a thai clinch, you pull down hard on the back of the neck (experienced thai fighters will know the best spots where they can apply the most pressure) and then use their forearms/elbows like a pincer to trap the head. There is not enough head movement to apply that kind of attack. Any attempt to do so will be clearly spotted and you'll be ripped off balance and knee in the face.

I'm not a 'judo' person, I've trained in several martial arts... I'm not even particularly good at Judo. I do muay thai, boxing, kickboxing, BJJ too, to different extents. I know what works and I know what doesn't work.

And hey, before you tell me to do a 'little research', why don't we go back to that time you said that judo was a ground-based support. I know you love to ignore this but I find it way too hilarious to let go... it just shows your ignorance of martial arts and fighting in general. You tell me to do research but all of my explanations are based on logic and experience whereas all your posts basically involve you saying 'This is this because it is and I'm not listening! *clamps hands on ears*' whilst peppering it with pathetic attempts at insults because clearly your posts don't actually hold up by themselves.

Well obviously someone WAY smaller than someone else wouldn't rely too heavily on something like a thai clinch, not least because they probably wouldn't be able to reach. In that case simply caking them with elbows or punches would do the trick, given that someone that large would be too slow to avoid them or do any damage themselves. It'd be like getting a muay thai fighter who's 4ft tall and weighs 100 pounds to fight someone who's 10ft tall and weighs 400 pounds and then saying 'Ha! Look, muay thai doesn't work!' There are always ways round the size differences if they are untrained, ALWAYS. Maybe not the clinch, just boxing instead. And no, I'm not a beginner in muay thai, or martial arts in general.