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Our choices are not set in stone

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    Hey everyone, how are you guys doing?




    With this topic I want to iron out the old belief that our choices are set before we were ever born. That there is no such thing as free will, because our choices were already made before they were made. This is not true by any means, that our choices are already set.



    Firstly I want to start with Adam. Was his choice of disobeying God already set before he was created? If they were, God would have never created man. (As we can see God regrets creating this kind of man during the time of the flood, that is the kind of man who would choose to ultimately reject Him)



    Again we see with King Saul, that God regrets making him king because Saul decided to ultimately reject Him. Did God know Saul could choose this route, absolutely. Yet the choice of Saul wasn't set in stone. God knew Saul would mess up, nothing Saul did caught God by suprise. Yet at some point, Saul's heart literally changed, Saul made the choice to follow the people's favoritism than follow God.




    Finally, Jesus made a statement concerning the one who would betray Him. He said it would be better for him (His betrayer) had he not been born. The only way Judas could have never been born, is if man was never created. This again points to Genesis 6, where God regretted creating man. All of this shows that our choices are not set in stone, we do have free will choice. Scripture says God is longsuffering, waiting for all to come to repentance. Last time I check the word "all" pretty much includes everyone. In other words, it's possible for everyone to receive the Lord into their hearts, which is why He is patient. If our choices were set in stone, He wouldn't be waiting for everyone to come to saving knowledge, He would already know who's in and who's out. Those who preach on savlation could immediately stop what they are doing, because the same number of people will come in anyway. (I find it a little strange how priests and preachers say our choices are set, yet are unwilling to stop their preaching of the Gospel even though the same number of people are still going to come regardless, because their choices are set. You could say their choice to preach is set, okay, but then why complain when people are not coming to church or are turning from God? Let's be consistent if we are to say choices are set.)





    So let me know how you guys feel on this. Give me some questions and let's discuss.:cool:
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    Prove it.
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    Interesting arguement. Just to add, if our sins and good deeds were predetermined by G-d, then the idea of reward aand punishment would be a bit farcicle. That's how I see it.
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    (Original post by tomclarky)
    Prove it.



    If our choices were set, I would figure our movement would be like time's movement. Just as one can predict the movement of the stars, we would be able to predict our movement and choices. I picture it like this, as each second passes, we would have a corresponding movement. As one second pass, our arm moves and inch. As two seconds pass, our arms move two inches. An hour passes, we eat a meal.


    Yet because are choices are not set, and we have free will, a second passes, and I choose to do nothing. Two seconds passes, I still choose to do nothing. An hour passes, and I choose to go to sleep. (I'm not lazy by the way.) So even though time passes, I can decide what I do in that time.
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    (Original post by Okashira)
    Yet because are choices are not set, and we have free will, a second passes, and I choose to do nothing. Two seconds passes, I still choose to do nothing. An hour passes, and I choose to go to sleep. (I'm not lazy by the way.) So even though time passes, I can decide what I do in that time.
    But those things could be set in stone aswell. It may feel like you're making those choices, but the truth is we'll never know because it can't be proven either way. Free will could just be an illusion.
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    (Original post by tomclarky)
    But those things could be set in stone aswell. It may feel like you're making those choices, but the truth is we'll never know because it can't be proven either way. Free will could just be an illusion.


    I'm going to return later on (got to go to work):cool: and discuss about this some more. Yet in terms of Christianity and the Bible, we certainly have free will.
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    (Original post by Okashira)
    Hey everyone, how are you guys doing?




    With this topic I want to iron out the old belief that our choices are set before we were ever born. That there is no such thing as free will, because our choices were already made before they were made. This is not true by any means, that our choices are already set.



    Firstly I want to start with Adam. Was his choice of disobeying God already set before he was created? If they were, God would have never created man. (As we can see God regrets creating this kind of man during the time of the flood, that is the kind of man who would choose to ultimately reject Him)



    Again we see with King Saul, that God regrets making him king because Saul decided to ultimately reject Him. Did God know Saul could choose this route, absolutely. Yet the choice of Saul wasn't set in stone. God knew Saul would mess up, nothing Saul did caught God by suprise. Yet at some point, Saul's heart literally changed, Saul made the choice to follow the people's favoritism than follow God.




    Finally, Jesus made a statement concerning the one who would betray Him. He said it would be better for him (His betrayer) had he not been born. The only way Judas could have never been born, is if man was never created. This again points to Genesis 6, where God regretted creating man. All of this shows that our choices are not set in stone, we do have free will choice. Scripture says God is longsuffering, waiting for all to come to repentance. Last time I check the word "all" pretty much includes everyone. In other words, it's possible for everyone to receive the Lord into their hearts, which is why He is patient. If our choices were set in stone, He wouldn't be waiting for everyone to come to saving knowledge, He would already know who's in and who's out. Those who preach on savlation could immediately stop what they are doing, because the same number of people will come in anyway. (I find it a little strange how priests and preachers say our choices are set, yet are unwilling to stop their preaching of the Gospel even though the same number of people are still going to come regardless, because their choices are set. You could say their choice to preach is set, okay, but then why complain when people are not coming to church or are turning from God? Let's be consistent if we are to say choices are set.)





    So let me know how you guys feel on this. Give me some questions and let's discuss.:cool:
    If God is supposedly all loving, then why would he regret creating them. Ultimately it would all be his fault, any suffering, wrong choices and unnecessary deaths caused by our supposed "free will".

    I believe that there are many different paths that our lives can take, but they eventually all lead to the same place or end.
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    Free-will is an illusion.

    If your going to use the Bible creation myth to try to prove your point, then lets face it, there's no point in arguing with you, because all the evidence in the world will not change your mind.
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    (Original post by DeadGirlsDance)
    If God is supposedly all loving, then why would he regret creating them. Ultimately it would all be his fault, any suffering, wrong choices and unnecessary deaths caused by our supposed "free will".

    I believe that there are many different paths that our lives can take, but they eventually all lead to the same place or end.



    It's man who rejected His love. Yes, God is all loving, but how can He love if people won't let Him?


    To your second point, it's not God's fault that people make bad choices anymore than it's the parent's fault for the choice their kid makes when he/she is grown.







    (Original post by Alpharius)
    Free-will is an illusion.

    If your going to use the Bible creation myth to try to prove your point, then lets face it, there's no point in arguing with you, because all the evidence in the world will not change your mind.



    Of course I'm going to use the Bible to discuss this, it's the religion forum. This topic is geared toward those who say with God at the helm, there is no such thing as choice. God knows what choice we will make, so ultimately it can't be changed. Not so! We do have choice, and the Scriptures I brought up varify it. However, if you want to discuss free will as an abstract concept, you will have to discuss it in the philosophy section.
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    Isn't god omnipresent or timeless? and he's also omniscient?

    If that's the case then he doesn't just know all of the things they could do, he knows all the things the have done before they do because his knowledge is the same in the future, the past and the present. We may not know what we're going to do in 40 years but god does because he's already there. That way he must've known what where we going to end up before we do.

    But that just makes reward and punishment seem like the silliest thing doesn't it? its like pushing your sibling into the tv and it breaks then punishing them for breaking it. sense = 0. But god having emotion like that even though he knows everything (not with high certainty ... he knows) doesn't make too much sense either.
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    (Original post by chickenonsteroids)
    Isn't god omnipresent or timeless? and he's also omniscient?

    If that's the case then he doesn't just know all of the things they could do, he knows all the things the have done before they do because his knowledge is the same in the future, the past and the present. We may not know what we're going to do in 40 years but god does because he's already there. That way he must've known what where we going to end up before we do.

    But that just makes reward and punishment seem like the silliest thing doesn't it? its like pushing your sibling into the tv and it breaks then punishing them for breaking it. sense = 0. But god having emotion like that even though he knows everything (not with high certainty ... he knows) doesn't make too much sense either.




    You're wrong about something, that is the fact that we do have free will choice. God knows what's down each path we choose to take, He knows what's going to happen down each path. Yet the kicker is, until we make a choice, there is nothing to know other than we have a choice to make. Once the choice is made, God knows what's down that path, what we will encounter, so on and on, until we make our next choice.



    Scripture says God knows the end from the beginning. The key here is God knows the end from the "beginning". If there is no beginning, there is no end. This is true for beings who have free will. So our choices are the beginning. Once they are made, God knows for sure what's going to happen, because now there is something to know for sure. (Before hand, all there was to know for sure, was a choice needed to be made.)
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    (Original post by Okashira)
    Of course I'm going to use the Bible to discuss this, it's the religion forum. This topic is geared toward those who say with God at the helm, there is no such thing as choice. God knows what choice we will make, so ultimately it can't be changed. Not so! We do have choice, and the Scriptures I brought up varify it. However, if you want to discuss free will as an abstract concept, you will have to discuss it in the philosophy section.
    This is not limited to just the religious. Is it a crime to ask for solid evidence to varify your claim?

    (Original post by Okashira)
    You're wrong about something, that is the fact that we do have free will choice. God knows what's down each path we choose to take, He knows what's going to happen down each path. Yet the kicker is, until we make a choice, there is nothing to know other than we have a choice to make. Once the choice is made, God knows what's down that path, what we will encounter, so on and on, until we make our next choice.



    Scripture says God knows the end from the beginning. The key here is God knows the end from the "beginning". If there is no beginning, there is no end. This is true for beings who have free will. So our choices are the beginning. Once they are made, God knows for sure what's going to happen, because now there is something to know for sure. (Before hand, all there was to know for sure, was a choice needed to be made.)
    Very profound and beautifully worded.

    Unfortunately I cannot see any substance in what you've said.
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    This is not limited to just the religious. Is it a crime to ask for solid evidence to varify your claim?


    I'm saying this topic discusses the old belief that if God knows everything we will do, it means our choices are set, that it can't be changed. In essence, if this is the case, there is no true free will choice because the choices have all been made ultimately. This is what the topic is addressing specifically.

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