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Original post by lifeshard
I was just saying that I do not get it when people say ''would you rather win a trophy or finish in the top4?" when the two are not reliant on eachother!

If we had won the FA cup i'd still be delighted. I'd just never be unhappy with a trophy. I don't get people that say ''I'm not happy we won the FA cup because we're not in top4". You should be saying ''I'm happy we won the FA cup but not happy we didn't qualify for top4". Simple as that.

It implies that you think finishing in the top4 and qualifying for the Champions League is the be all end all of football when your A FAN. Not a director of football or finances. A fan! A gooner! You want to watch your captain climb them steps and lift the trophy! You can't ever claim to be unhappy about that. That's what football IS.

There are teams that are consistently in CL year in year out, albiet usually from the lesser leagues but you also get the Valencias but they don't win anything.

I don't have a small club mentality. I just recognize the club is struggling. It won't be considered ''not struggling'' untill we are contending for the title once more. It is a testament to how big a club Liverpool is that we could have ended this year with a cup double and a lot would still consider it a failure.


It makes sense this season as the likes of Arsenal, Newcastle and Tottenham could end up in the top 4 without a trophy whilst Liverpool and Chelsea have won one. It makes for interesting discussion to compare the achievements between the 5 teams.

This is where I am different to most fans. I don't care much for trophies. I only became a Gooner recently (didn't switch team before you ask) and have never seen us lift a trophy or was able to experience the Invincibles. My values are based on what I enjoy and I love watching my team in the top competition in Europe competing amongst the best. I thoroughly enjoyed my team beating Barca at the Emirates and even Milan. That's what I watch football for. Not for trophies but to watch my team play amazing football with some of the best teams in the world.

It is clear that the majority of fans rely on trophies to get some sort of achievement from watching football which is clearly a ridiculous fallacy. I know people are going to come up with the argument that if you win trophies you would've inevitably played amazing teams and won some amazing matches and clearly in the domestic cup, it really isn't true anymore. No one tries in Carling cup anymore and the FA has lost any priority it used to have because of the CL. I've said this before and I'll say it again; I don't care if Arsenal never win a trophy during my lifetime, I just want my team to give it 100% whenever they play and make it an entertaining game.

Football is not all about winning trophies and you'd do well to remember that.
Reply 8261
I would definitely rather see Newcastle win the FA Cup than finish top 4.

:moon:
Reply 8262
Original post by Darth Vader 7
It makes sense this season as the likes of Arsenal, Newcastle and Tottenham could end up in the top 4 without a trophy whilst Liverpool and Chelsea have won one. It makes for interesting discussion to compare the achievements between the 5 teams.

This is where I am different to most fans. I don't care much for trophies. I only became a Gooner recently (didn't switch team before you ask) and have never seen us lift a trophy or was able to experience the Invincibles. My values are based on what I enjoy and I love watching my team in the top competition in Europe competing amongst the best. I thoroughly enjoyed my team beating Barca at the Emirates and even Milan. That's what I watch football for. Not for trophies but to watch my team play amazing football with some of the best teams in the world.

It is clear that the majority of fans rely on trophies to get some sort of achievement from watching football which is clearly a ridiculous fallacy. I know people are going to come up with the argument that if you win trophies you would've inevitably played amazing teams and won some amazing matches and clearly in the domestic cup, it really isn't true anymore. No one tries in Carling cup anymore and the FA has lost any priority it used to have because of the CL. I've said this before and I'll say it again; I don't care if Arsenal never win a trophy during my lifetime, I just want my team to give it 100% whenever they play and make it an entertaining game.

Football is not all about winning trophies and you'd do well to remember that.


:lolwut:

:facepalm2:
Original post by jam277
Yeah, enjoy the moment, like you guys are enjoying winning a league cup this season. :rolleyes: for this to be called a successful season is papering over the cracks, same for you guys.

I should be proud if my team got relegated too and won the league cup like birmingham did too. There is a difference, we beat the best sides in europe over two legs in every round until the final. Get the second hardest group stage, get the second hardest second seed and face the best team in the world and beat them over two legs.

We faced championship sides/soon to be a championship side until the semi final, we then faced a tottenham team full of fatigue who've crashed since harry was thinking about the england job and faced a liverpool team that are 8th in the league and had a terrible season by their standards and todays game epitomized all your problems. You play terrible in the first half and step up in the last 30 mins. What a great FA cup. Would rather face bayern and win the CL in all honesty.

Who is the best team in europe this season then? Real madrid, barca, bayern? 2 of the teams are second in their league while the 3rd only have a league title to show for such a great season. We have just as much of a claim than they do if we win the CL. We'll be in the CL next season too if we win it and have the joy of beating the best teams in europe on the way.


Uh, you faced teams Chelsea would be favourites against up until the semi final where you parked the bus for both legs and were hella lucky. Credit to you it was a disciplined performance and heartening to see 10 man Chelsea knock out THE giants that are Barcelona who have monopolized the European cup since 2008 but you aren't the best in Europe and you won't be considered that even if you do manage to win it. You weren't better than Barcelona. The heavens smiled on you. That's about it. Arsenal were knocked out by them last season but at least attempted to play football and go toe to toe with them and were extremely close to going through and arguably fell down only because of that ridiculous RVP sending off. I would say Arsenals performance and 3 nil drubbing of AC Milan at the Emirates was much more impressive than you're approach to the Barcelona game. Just because you beat Barca does not mean you are the best team in Europe. If you win the Champions League it doesn't mean you are the best team in Europe. How dumb and devoid of any footballing knowledge are you? We won the Champions League in 2005, were we the best team in Europe? We weren't even the fourth best team in England. Niether are you.


Also, I never argued winning the FA cup was better than winning the Champions League. I never said winning the league cup would deem this a successful season either. Just make up stuff as you go along, go ahead.
Reply 8264
Original post by jam277
I think he should be sacked in all honesty. The FA cup would have given him more time though, but that's obviously not what FSG wanted this season, they wanted a good run in the league and a CL spot/top 4 with possibly a league cup on the way. That would have been a great season for liverpool.


I think he may be moved upstairs, surely FSG will class this season as a major failure. Tbh I'm indifferent, part of me wants stability and part of me thinks we need a managerial change.


What's so "facepalm" about it? It's an opinion ffs.
Original post by Darth Vader 7
It makes sense this season as the likes of Arsenal, Newcastle and Tottenham could end up in the top 4 without a trophy whilst Liverpool and Chelsea have won one. It makes for interesting discussion to compare the achievements between the 5 teams.

This is where I am different to most fans. I don't care much for trophies. I only became a Gooner recently (didn't switch team before you ask) and have never seen us lift a trophy or was able to experience the Invincibles. My values are based on what I enjoy and I love watching my team in the top competition in Europe competing amongst the best. I thoroughly enjoyed my team beating Barca at the Emirates and even Milan. That's what I watch football for. Not for trophies but to watch my team play amazing football with some of the best teams in the world.

It is clear that the majority of fans rely on trophies to get some sort of achievement from watching football which is clearly a ridiculous fallacy. I know people are going to come up with the argument that if you win trophies you would've inevitably played amazing teams and won some amazing matches and clearly in the domestic cup, it really isn't true anymore. No one tries in Carling cup anymore and the FA has lost any priority it used to have because of the CL. I've said this before and I'll say it again; I don't care if Arsenal never win a trophy during my lifetime, I just want my team to give it 100% whenever they play and make it an entertaining game.

Football is not all about winning trophies and you'd do well to remember that.


I guess this is where I differ. You are happy with just rubbing shoulders with the best whereas I want Liverpool to BE THE BEST just like we once were. Just like Arsenal were. You have a defeatist menality and I hope most Arsenal fans are not like you. It would make for a terrible fanbase to say the least.

I experienced the Invincibles and tell you what it was amazing. Arsenal will always stand out because of that season, those great players. Not losing for 49 games is just :O. Because of this they won trophies they won leagues. They monopolized English football for that time. They didn't just scrape top4 and get knocked out by the first good side they met in the Champions League. THATS what you get remembered for. Winning trophies, setting precedents, breaking records, making history not JUST qualifying for the Champions League!


I believe Liverpool to be among Bayern Munich, Real Madrid, AC Milan, Juventus, Manchester United etc in prestige and I want our football on the pitch to match us. I want us to be in the CL and be feared. Not just be there for the sake of being there like Valencia, Porto, Marseille, Lille etc.

I would be horrified if Liverpool never won a trophy again in my lifetime and the only thing I ever had to look forward to was a tasty tie in the Champions League whereby I got to say ''we scored a goal against Barcelona, it was a magical moment". Seriously my friend, maybe it's because you've never seen your team win anything you don't know what it feels like but hopefully one day you will and you'll understand saying football is not about winning trophies is on the ridiculous side considering half the reason big clubs are considered big is because of what they have won in the past.
(edited 11 years ago)
Watched the game with my dad and a friend at mine, gutted about the loss. We comforted ourselves by going to watch the Avengers movie.

I never want to see Spearing in a red shirt again. The lad is garbage. No amount of effort and commitment will make up for that.
I must admit I said before the game that Andy should start on the bench and i'll admit I was wrong. After 30 minutes though I was crying out for him to be brought on. Suarez couldn't get in the game up top on his own and it was obvious the game was passing us by. A coach like Mourinho would have seen it wasn't working and changed it instantly...Kenny didn't have the balls to do it.

Downing and Henderson were bloody awful, Bellamy was really off colour, Enrique was bad
Spearing takes the cake though...diabolical.

Fair play to Chelsea though, they took their chances when they came and deserved it since we only turned up with 25 minutes left on the clock.
(edited 11 years ago)
Reply 8268
Original post by Pn94
The big question now is what will happen with Dalglish.


I think that is the first question that needs to be answered before we do all these business about buying/selling players. Any other manager would have got the head, people would have been calling for it tbh. So why not Dalglish? I guess because of his past, he should be gone upstairs and not sacked like others would have, I think we need someone new in, because Dalglish's tactics clearly don't work and I don't think he'll improve us next season.

FSG wanted top 4 and they said that without it, it would be failure. Its obvious we won't get top 4 this season, but I don't know how they'll take League cup win and FA cup runners up. But I think they should just kindly ask him to move aside. Allow someone to rebuild the team and maybe once that is done, put him back on?

This season I think has been a failure. 1 trophy, a runners up on FA cup, and a midtable. Behind Everton. With the likes of Wigan, West Brom etc beating us. and some even drawing against us.
The only thing Dalglish got right from the start was not starting Carragher. Bellamy should be used as an impact sub, brought on when teams are tiring.

The only defender to do well was Johnson.

Pride seems to be stopping Kenny from changing things. Or else he just doesn't realize. It was obvious from about 30 mins in that you needed a focal point in attack, so why not change things at HT or earlier?
Original post by lifeshard
I guess this is where I differ. You are happy with just rubbing shoulders with the best whereas I want Liverpool to BE THE BEST just like we once were. Just like Arsenal were. You have a defeatist menality and I hope most Arsenal fans are not like you. It would make for a terrible fanbase to say the least.

I believe Liverpool to be among Bayern Munich, Real Madrid, AC Milan, Juventus, Manchester United etc in prestige and I want our football on the pitch to match us. I want us to be in the CL and be feared. Not just be there for the sake of being there like Valencia, Porto, Marseille, Lille etc.

I would be horrified if Liverpool never won a trophy again in my lifetime and the only thing I ever had to look forward to was a tasty tie in the Champions League whereby I got to say ''we scored a goal against Barcelona, it was a magical moment". Seriously my friend, maybe it's because you've never seen your team win anything you don't know what it feels like but hopefully one day you will and you'll understand saying football is not about winning trophies is on the ridiculous side considering half the reason big clubs are considered big is because of what they have won in the past.


Hardly a defeatist mentality. I just don't expect my club to be detrimental towards itself because of petty little trophies. I would be delighted if we won the League or the CL and I'm certain that we will one of them during my lifetime, my point was more that football isn't completely about trophies (especially FA cups or Carling cups). It must be a great feeling but why support teams like Accrington Stanley or Leyton Orient? They'll never really win big trophies in our lifetime. By your logic, their fan base should be supporting one of the big teams in Europe as that's what football is about. It's not personally.

It doesn't make for a terrible fanbase as some of the best haven't won trophies in a long time (Newcastle have quite good support and yet they haven't won anything major in 50 years). There are others but this is just making a point. Same goes with why attend Premier league games or watch them if you know you won't win the league.

Like I said before, my point was more aimed at the CC and FA cup. I'd rather have those 'magical moments' at the expense of a CC or FA cup. I would love to have both but at this moment in time, Arsenal are incapable of doing that.

Arsenal and Liverpool will most likely win the League/Champions league during our lifetime. My statement was just to show my support for the club that it extends further than trophies.
Reply 8271
Original post by mr tim
I think that is the first question that needs to be answered before we do all these business about buying/selling players. Any other manager would have got the head, people would have been calling for it tbh. So why not Dalglish? I guess because of his past, he should be gone upstairs and not sacked like others would have, I think we need someone new in, because Dalglish's tactics clearly don't work and I don't think he'll improve us next season.

FSG wanted top 4 and they said that without it, it would be failure. Its obvious we won't get top 4 this season, but I don't know how they'll take League cup win and FA cup runners up. But I think they should just kindly ask him to move aside. Allow someone to rebuild the team and maybe once that is done, put him back on?

This season I think has been a failure. 1 trophy, a runners up on FA cup, and a midtable. Behind Everton. With the likes of Wigan, West Brom etc beating us. and some even drawing against us.


I agree it's the first decision that needs to be made and one that must be made more or less directly after the season finishes, so that a new manager can take whatever direction he wishes in the transfer market. I feel a decision may have already been made, maybe Dalglish will become DoF or head scout and there'll be a new manager? But who knows.
Original post by lifeshard
Uh, you faced teams Chelsea would be favourites against up until the semi final where you parked the bus for both legs and were hella lucky. Credit to you it was a disciplined performance and heartening to see 10 man Chelsea knock out THE giants that are Barcelona who have monopolized the European cup since 2008 but you aren't the best in Europe and you won't be considered that even if you do manage to win it. You weren't better than Barcelona. The heavens smiled on you. That's about it. Arsenal were knocked out by them last season but at least attempted to play football and go toe to toe with them and were extremely close to going through and arguably fell down only because of that ridiculous RVP sending off. I would say Arsenals performance and 3 nil drubbing of AC Milan at the Emirates was much more impressive than you're approach to the Barcelona game. Just because you beat Barca does not mean you are the best team in Europe. If you win the Champions League it doesn't mean you are the best team in Europe. How dumb and devoid of any footballing knowledge are you? We won the Champions League in 2005, were we the best team in Europe? We weren't even the fourth best team in England. Niether are you.


Milan in the 1990's had a very defensive style of football too which was different to our style tbf but wasn't pleasing to watch. Anyway, my question was, who is the best team in europe this season? Bayern, 2nd in their league with a squad miles better than the rest and richer than the rest, real madrid, 1st in the league but out of the CL and their spanish cup to bayern and barcelona. We have a good claim. Does it matter about the approach of a game? We were hyper defensive for half an hour against you guys.

I'm not bothering when anyone says we weren't impressive vs barca, the win was what counts, united spend a lot of matches winning 1-0 quite a lot and play poorly, they win the league with those points and that's what counts.

Original post by lifeshard
Also, I never argued winning the FA cup was better than winning the Champions League. I never said winning the league cup would deem this a successful season either. Just make up stuff as you go along, go ahead.


Never said that. You were saying I should be happy that we won, yeah I'm happy we won a trophy but it's the FA cup... not the CL. I'm not happy about winning the FA cup as our season has been poor to our standards and winning the CL is literally the only way to say we've had a good season or to say that we've saved our season.
Reply 8273
Today really highlighted our serious problems ATM:

Reina has been a shadow of his former self since his coach, Valero, left. He even states in his autobiography that he was gutted when Valero left. It sounds like the new coach is average or nowhere near to Valeros standards.

Enrique and Bellamy have completely fallen to pieces in the second half of the season. Especially Enrique. Seems to really struggle in the big matches and against pacy wingers (seem to remember Valencia tearing him apart at OT, and Moses got the better of him at Anfield) I know Aureilio is ridiculous with his injuries but starting him on Tuesday would be a good idea. It pains me to say it, but I think the years may be finally catching up on Bellamy.

Spearing is the luckiest kid on the planet. Too have played so many times for LFC is just astonishing. Nowhere near in Lucas' class and his passing is some of the least ambitious stuff I've ever seen. Backwards, sideways, backwards, sideways.

Henderson seemed unaware of his position today. With Stevie dropping so deep, surely he should have been our AM? Made very few runs into the box and all round play was too cautious. Had a couple of shots but another meh performance. Still have faith he might come good though.

Downing needs to be more confident. He seemed to be terrified of running at Bosingwa and he's been like this a few times this season. Funny how when he finally did star running at the lad, he put in some decent crosses and often got the better of him.

Suarez and Carroll need a chance. Luis is no miracle worker and looked so isolated in the first half it was almost sad. But it was a different story when Andy came on and some of the link up play was nice. It has shown flashes of developing in to a partnership this season, why not give it a chance in the last couple of games?
Original post by Darth Vader 7
Hardly a defeatist mentality. I just don't expect my club to be detrimental towards itself because of petty little trophies. I would be delighted if we won the League or the CL and I'm certain that we will one of them during my lifetime, my point was more that football isn't completely about trophies (especially FA cups or Carling cups). It must be a great feeling but why support teams like Accrington Stanley or Leyton Orient? They'll never really win big trophies in our lifetime. By your logic, their fan base should be supporting one of the big teams in Europe as that's what football is about. It's not personally.

It doesn't make for a terrible fanbase as some of the best haven't won trophies in a long time (Newcastle have quite good support and yet they haven't won anything major in 50 years). There are others but this is just making a point. Same goes with why attend Premier league games or watch them if you know you won't win the league.

Like I said before, my point was more aimed at the CC and FA cup. I'd rather have those 'magical moments' at the expense of a CC or FA cup. I would love to have both but at this moment in time, Arsenal are incapable of doing that.

Arsenal and Liverpool will most likely win the League/Champions league during our lifetime. My statement was just to show my support for the club that it extends further than trophies.


How would winning a ''petty'' trophy as you say be detrimental towards Arsenal? It is a defeatist mentality because you said I would be quite happy not winning anything ever, you didn't say Carling Cup you said ANYTHING as long as my club competes in the Champions League. Arsenal are a big club and having a mentality like that is odd.

Football is about trophies. You choose your football team than you support them to win or do the best they can in the specific competition they are in. Different clubs, different expectations. Of course if I was a Leyton Orient supporter i'd have a different outlook. But I'm not i'm a Liverpool supporter. I'm used to us winning things and I want to go back to that. I would not be content ''never winning anything ever'' so long as I got to rub shoulders with the best. You basically likened Arsenal to a Z list celebrity being grateful just to be allowed to hang around with the A list celebs.

Yeah but i'm sure a Newcastle supporter wouldn't say ''I would be content never winning anything in my whole lifetime so long as the team tried hard and played pretty football". Seriously nobody says that. That's why I said if everyone thought like you it would make for a terrible fanbase because you have low expectations and are easily pleased.

Your support extends further than that, of course but so does everyone else's. If Liverpool never won a trophy again I would still support them because I love them but i'd be disappointed and unhappy with it. I wouldn't be content. Through in thick and thin though. It's difficult now. Just being out of the Champions League. But these cup success's remind us what it feels like to be a winning team. It makes the future not look so bleak.

But football is a results based business my friend and winning trophies is integral to that. That is WHY Liverpool is a big club. That is WHY Arsenal is one too. Not because Arsenal play nice football and once beat Barcelona in a two legged tie but never went through etc etc. I mean we actually knocked out Barcelona in 2007. The team wasn't as formidable as this one but it was still quite an achievement. Is it in anyway as remembered as Istanbul? Nope because we didn't win the trophy. We got to the final but we didn't win.
Original post by jam277
Milan in the 1990's had a very defensive style of football too which was different to our style tbf but wasn't pleasing to watch. Anyway, my question was, who is the best team in europe this season? Bayern, 2nd in their league with a squad miles better than the rest and richer than the rest, real madrid, 1st in the league but out of the CL and their spanish cup to bayern and barcelona. We have a good claim. Does it matter about the approach of a game? We were hyper defensive for half an hour against you guys.

I'm not bothering when anyone says we weren't impressive vs barca, the win was what counts, united spend a lot of matches winning 1-0 quite a lot and play poorly, they win the league with those points and that's what counts.



Never said that. You were saying I should be happy that we won, yeah I'm happy we won a trophy but it's the FA cup... not the CL. I'm not happy about winning the FA cup as our season has been poor to our standards and winning the CL is literally the only way to say we've had a good season or to say that we've saved our season.


Thats the thing. You don't have a good claim. You're not even close to Barcelona. I can't believe i'm actually discussing this atm. For starters Manchester United, Manchester City, Arsenal, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich, Dortmund to say the least are ALL better than Chelsea atm. I still believe that for the time being Barcelona are the best team in Europe with Real Madrid just a shade behind but that goes without saying, Chelsea are not even the best team in England. Not even close. How can you have a legitimate claim to being the best team in Europe?

I know winning is what counts but when you state winning the CL would mean Chelsea can be considered the best team in Europe that is when I can talk about the way you played to dispute that. That's when it becomes relevant. If Chelsea win the CL they are Champions of Europe, they won the games neccessary but they won't be the best team in Europe.

You approached the game that way because Di Matteo and Chelsea players knew they were 1000x inferior to Barcelona and this was the only approach they could take that would give them a realistic chance at winning. If you had been as foolish as Bayer Leverkusen and tried to play you probably would have been hit for 5 or 6. But no Barcelona played through a brick wall and you still conceded two goals. Torres's goal was the kind a team who's throwing everything they have got into attacking concedes. It's Babels vs Arsenal. Not because that's just generally the way you set up and play like AC Milan of the 90's.

I'm not saying winning the FA cup will make your season good but it's a moment to enjoy and it's ridiculous to dampen it because of you're failure to qualify for the CL. There's always next year where Chelsea will probably be trying to contend for the title. After a roller coaster season you make history by winning 4 FA cups in 6 years. If that's not something to shout about I don't know what is :dontknow:
(edited 11 years ago)
Reply 8276
Liverpool fans boo their own national anthem.

Scouse pricks.
Reply 8277
Original post by Darth Vader 7
Hardly a defeatist mentality. I just don't expect my club to be detrimental towards itself because of petty little trophies. I would be delighted if we won the League or the CL and I'm certain that we will one of them during my lifetime, my point was more that football isn't completely about trophies (especially FA cups or Carling cups). It must be a great feeling but why support teams like Accrington Stanley or Leyton Orient? They'll never really win big trophies in our lifetime. By your logic, their fan base should be supporting one of the big teams in Europe as that's what football is about. It's not personally.

It doesn't make for a terrible fanbase as some of the best haven't won trophies in a long time (Newcastle have quite good support and yet they haven't won anything major in 50 years). There are others but this is just making a point. Same goes with why attend Premier league games or watch them if you know you won't win the league.

Like I said before, my point was more aimed at the CC and FA cup. I'd rather have those 'magical moments' at the expense of a CC or FA cup. I would love to have both but at this moment in time, Arsenal are incapable of doing that.

Arsenal and Liverpool will most likely win the League/Champions league during our lifetime. My statement was just to show my support for the club that it extends further than trophies.


You're having a mare here lad, just go to bed now before it gets any worse.

To say the FA Cup is a petty little trophy is frankly disgraceful.
People support them teams because they're their local teams and fair play to them for doing that, in the hope that eventually their teams will be good enough to challenge for silverware - you know like the ultimate goal for every football team in existence.
Newcastle's support is a lot better than simply "quite good".
Original post by lifeshard
Thats the thing. You don't have a good claim. You're not even close to Barcelona. I can't believe i'm actually discussing this atm. For starters Manchester United, Manchester City, Arsenal, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich, Dortmund to say the least are ALL better than Chelsea atm. I still believe that for the time being Barcelona are the best team in Europe with Real Madrid just a shade behind but that goes without saying, Chelsea are not even the best team in England. Not even close. How can you have a legitimate claim to being the best team in Europe?



WRT the bolded bit, that is impossible to say. Dortmund flopped majorly in the CL, yet Chelsea haven't, while Bayern have reached the same stage.
Original post by Darth Vader 7
What's so "facepalm" about it? It's an opinion ffs.


It seems as if having one different from others makes it wrong. Especially on here.

Although I would agree, I'd much rather us be top 4 than win the FA/Carling cup.
Of course both would be nice too. But the atmosphere and excitement created in Champions league is the pinnacle for me, they were my best memories of my team and that's how it will always be with me.
Although if we speak purely about the game the whole idea is winning trophies. It's just how important some are in comparison, for me top 4 is more important than FA/Carling. I think most of us think that, well maybe.. Some people are here just to enfuriate you though.. Need I say names..

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