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Let down by their countrymen: how our Forces often feel unappreciated

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If the children of British MP's were fighting in this conflict we would be out of Afghan next week. Sad fact.

Handily ignoring, that is, that the grandson of the Head of State has served in the war and very publicly expressed his desire to return...

And, can I just clarify, your "Yes". Was that suggesting that I as a former serviceman [who served fulltime for about 12months between 2009 and 2010 and never left training] am responsible for the UK Government deciding to go into Afghanistan in 2001 and Iraq in 2003?

Reply 61

MonkeyMan2009

Original post by ConnorB

Anyone else feel they're in a country that is a ticking time bomb?

Reply 62

Cyanohydrin

Original post by Drewski

Handily ignoring, that is, that the grandson of the Head of State has served in the war and very publicly expressed his desire to return...

LOL. You mean that pathetic piece of militarist propaganda? Were we going to hear anything from Harry about shortages of equipment, the justice of the war, or the likelihood that it will never be won? Of course not. He was shown in a deserted area where the shops and houses are in ruined after the British and US war planes bombed the area, and people fled or killed. We have committed horrible war crimes that no Afghan and no human being should forget or forgive them and now the prince is part of this massacre of civilians.

And, can I just clarify, your "Yes". Was that suggesting that I as a former serviceman [who served fulltime for about 12months between 2009 and 2010 and never left training] am responsible for the UK Government deciding to go into Afghanistan in 2001 and Iraq in 2003?

Well yes, if you signed up after 2001, then yes you are.

Reply 63

Guitarded

Original post by Drewski

They're doing it because those who've been democratically elected to power by the people decide it's necessary.

If you have problems with the bus service, do you complain to the drivers or the company that runs the buses?

No one elected the corporations or the banks that pretty much control the Government.

And I'm not complaining to the troops. I'm just saying that while they are brave and do put their lives on the line, they're not all heroes and they don't always know who they're serving or why, and there's little reason to thank them for signing up to go and fight illegal wars. Again, I'm not blaming them - many joined the army prior to the war in Afghanistan or Iraq, and weren't aware of the orders they would be given. Even without the wars there's always need for an army (e.g. they may have been needed for the riots last year, or for the recent fuel strike). But when it comes to Afghanistan, and so-called 'Operation Iraqi Freedom', they were hardly serving our country, and I don't think they all deserve the amount of credit for doing so that the media likes to give them.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 64

Drewski

Original post by Cyanohydrin

But, you have to admit, that it completely debunks your point about the relatives of those in power not doing the fighting, or that the Forces would be removed if they were.

Well yes, if you signed up after 2001, then yes you are.

I did indeed sign up after 2001, I signed up in 2009. So how am I responsible for something that happened before then?
I was born in 1985. Bet I'm responsible for the Falklands, too...?

Reply 65

Guitarded

Original post by Drewski

I did indeed sign up after 2001, I signed up in 2009. So how am I responsible for something that happened before then?
I was born in 1985. Bet I'm responsible for the Falklands, too...?

I think what he's saying is that by signing up for an illegal war you're not only supporting it, but you're making it happen. You can't have a war if no one is willing to fight it.

Reply 66

Drewski

Original post by Guitarded

I think what he's saying is that by signing up for an illegal war you're not only supporting it, but you're making it happen. You can't have a war if no one is willing to fight it.

No, he's saying I made it happen. He's had 3 posts to choose his words better and hasn't used them.

And, at most, he can argue the case for Afghanistan. As our involvement in Iraq was finished in 2008 I object to the implication that my signing up in 2009 relates to it.

Reply 67

Cyanohydrin

Original post by Drewski

But, you have to admit, that it completely debunks your point about the relatives of those in power not doing the fighting, or that the Forces would be removed if they were.

LOL! And I suppose Harry was not protected right!!?

Logic alone should tell you that as third in line to the throne, Harry’s life would never have been placed in danger. He doesn’t go to nightclubs without bodyguards, so to serve somewhere like Afghanistan with no more than a media blackout as protection would have been beyond ridiculous.

The publicist Max Clifford (who knows a fair bit about PR) stated that it was a publicity stunt. Moreover, Mr Clifford makes the point as to why such a photo opportunity might have been “necessary”. Just before the excursion, Harry had been getting increasingly bad press. His gap year (which was actually nearer two) had mainly consisted of him falling out of nightclubs and being involved in paparazzi scuffs. That’s not to mention other drunken escapades, the cannabis smoking, the Nazi costume, and calling a fellow soldier a P*ki. How convenient that all these things seem to have been forgotten now that the public think he is a war hero. Nowadays if a photo appears of him partying away in a less-than-dignified manner, most readers seem to excuse it as a young hard-working soldier having a bit of fun :rolleyes:

If the wicked ruling class knowingly send British and Americans to die in futile war, we should not support the troops if they mindlessly follow those orders. We should remind them they have a far greater duty to their families by not offering themselves up as cannon fodder; indeed they have a duty to society. They are innocent victims, and they need to know that the wars of the early 21st century that they have been involved in – that their friends have been tragically killed in – are contributory factors to the loss of liberties that we see at home, and allow evil corporate types to prosper. I’d rather see the British military disobeying the ruling elite on the grounds that it is criminal and it is unrepresentative of the people. They don’t have to go all the way to the backend of nowhere to find a dictator to overthrow. But I am afraid that it is some faint hope.

I did indeed sign up after 2001, I signed up in 2009. So how am I responsible for something that happened before then?

You are responsible for signing up to fight in conflicts I consider a disgrace to this country.

I was born in 1985. Bet I'm responsible for the Falklands, too...?

Eh?

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 68

cl_steele

Original post by Perseveranze

No one appreciates a bunch of child murders, rapers and torturers. To feel appreciated, you'd think the Brits were mental. Thankfully that is not the case.

£5 says youre no better.

Reply 69

Drewski

Original post by Cyanohydrin

You are responsible for signing up to fight in conflicts I consider a disgrace to this country.

Eh?

That you consider a disgrace. The Government does not run for you. It runs for the people. And makes decisions it decides are in the best interest of the most people for the longest time. It is not immune to being wrong. No human is. Can you honestly say you've never made a mistake ever?
I'm fairly confident that, one or two decisions/idiots aside, that if the Government had had a crystal ball in 2001, prior to Afghanistan and in 2003, prior to Iraq, that we wouldn't have been involved in either. I cannot say for sure - and neither can you.

Anyway, I'm done. You and I will never agree and will simply go round and round in circles. I'm happy with the path I took. And no amount of people like you will ever change that.
Having a higher ideal for things is fine. Not doing anything about it is just lazy and quite pathetic.

Reply 70

Stiff Little Fingers

Original post by Drewski

well, that's debatable...

So, pray explain - how did the invasion of Iraq benefit people?

Reply 71

Drewski

Original post by Alofleicester

well, that's debatable...

So, pray explain - how did the invasion of Iraq benefit people?

Read the next two sentences after the one you highlighted.

Reply 72

Stiff Little Fingers

Original post by Drewski

Read the next two sentences after the one you highlighted.

ok then, but if they make decisions that they believe benefit the people, then they must have thought at one point that the Iraq war was beneficial - so why would they think that?

Reply 73

Drewski

Original post by Alofleicester

ok then, but if they make decisions that they believe benefit the people, then they must have thought at one point that the Iraq war was beneficial - so why would they think that?

I think you have me mistaken with a member of the Labour Cabinet circa 2003... Why not ask them, or look up any one of the countless interviews they've given on the subject?

Reply 74

Pindar

Original post by tehFrance

So I was reading the Telegraph and I stumbled across this article about how Armed service personnel are often disrespected and I personally think that it is a disgrace, these brave men and women are putting their lives on the line for us.

I have to ask what is why do people disrespect them? I get that some people are anti-war and think that all wars are about oil and that our brave men and women are pawns but that is no reason to be disrespectful to them.

I don't know, they choose to kill people for money don't they? People may have some sort of sentimentality towards the nation whose people they are butchering, it's natural.

Surely if you're signing up you accept that you're doing a very controversial job? Also I don't understand how you're saying we're somehow benefiting off their meaningless deaths? :confused:

Reply 75

Pindar

Original post by tehFrance

I'd say so, they put their lives on the line for us, democracy and the people that we go in to help.

Wow.... you are very deluded. You seriously think politicians start wars for democracy? :lolwut:

Original post by tehFrance

If people knew what soldiers did aside from fighting for the civil liberties we take for granted then I think that they would not be disrespectful!!!!

How are the armed soldiers fighting for our civil liberties? It seems our civil liberties are being eroded regardless. I'm failing to make the connection.

Original post by tehFrance

Maybe I am bias as I have many family members in the military here and in France... :dontknow:

Possibly. Have you asked them if they like killing people? A lot of people sign up for the adrenaline rush of killing poorly armed insurgents, it is like a drug for them. And they are addicted. I doubt many people would sign up to kill people if they didn't think they'd enjoy it. Most seem to enjoy doing their job and self-assure themselves by repeating those mantras about spreading democracy and such like, to quell any guilt. Of course it's all cognitive dissonance.

Possibly a lot of people may have some sort of grudge against people hunting and killing people for sport. Is it that really that difficult to understand?

Reply 76

Spaz Man

I still feel as a Muslim disgusted a those guys who burned poppies. What idiots.

Reply 77

thunder_chunky

Original post by Perseveranze

No one appreciates a bunch of child murders, rapers and torturers. To feel appreciated, you'd think the Brits were mental. Thankfully that is not the case.

If you want people to take anything you say seriously you're going the wrong way about it.

Original post by Guitarded

And the soldiers do NOT serve US.

They serve the country therefore they serve us by proxy.

Original post by Cyanohydrin

Actually the strongest hatred of the British military will be found in Irish Catholic communities in places like Glasgow.

This from a Celtic FC match last year...

http://www.scotzine.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/willievasscelticpic.jpg

Yeah that was a scummy thing for those Celtic fans to do.

Reply 78

Dubliner

Original post by Drewski

They're doing it because those who've been democratically elected to power by the people decide it's necessary.

There was and is no democratic mandate for either war.

The majority of the British public opposed Iraq from the offset (as evidenced not just by opinion polls, but by the fact the war was pre-dated by the biggest demonstration in British history), and the majority of the public have opposed the Afghan war for years and years. Tony Blair did not get elected on a platform of starting two wars that have led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands as far as I am aware?

To those who claim only Muslims hold negative views of the British military...they should hop over to Ireland..or indeed parts of the UK like Glasgow and Liverpool with large Irish populations. Personally, I had 3 gran-uncles who fought with them in WW1. However, that does not mean I have to like their foreign policy which has left a trail of blood in Iraq and Afghanistan in the last decade.

Reply 79

thunder_chunky

Original post by Cyanohydrin

I’d rather see the British military disobeying the ruling elite on the grounds that it is criminal and it is unrepresentative of the people.

Yeah because what we really want to see is a revolt by the millitary (which, by the way would probably never happen.)
What a wild imagination you have.