[navarre]

If you go to any Catholic church in the country, they'll have multiple statues and images of Mary, they'll invoke Mary in their prayers and they include her in their theology.

I understand most Christian theology, but if there's one thing I don't get, it's why Catholics (and Orthodox) attach so much importance to Mary.

I mean, she was just the mother of Jesus, wasn't she? It's a very big role to play, but Jesus is the main figure, Mary was just the woman who gave birth to him.

In short, why all the fuss?

[Dmon1Unlimited]

probably because she was a virgin to... from the perspective of those around then, would be surprising...

like a deaf guy playing the piano...

Spoiler:

Show

[rac1]

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/browse/Mary

[geetar]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BVM%28R...ration_of_Mary

In fairness, being Jesus' mum is a pretty big deal. Also, historical circumstance is a big factor too. When Protestants in the 16th century attacked the Catholic Church, one of the things they focused a lot of their derision on in particular was the Marian cult. And so Catholics, in a an effort to buttress both their faith and their sense of identity, reinforced this cult in their theology and religious doctrine. An example of this can be seen in the German city of Augsberg during the Counter-Reformation.

[Christ Is Lord]

(Original post by navarre)
If you go to any Catholic church in the country, they'll have multiple statues and images of Mary, they'll invoke Mary in their prayers and they include her in their theology.

I understand most Christian theology, but if there's one thing I don't get, it's why Catholics (and Orthodox) attach so much importance to Mary.

I mean, she was just the mother of Jesus, wasn't she? It's a very big role to play, but Jesus is the main figure, Mary was just the woman who gave birth to him.

In short, why all the fuss?

I think this could clarify a few things up for you;

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False...olic_idols.htm

[Martyn*]

She's the Queen of Heaven for Catholics.

[Norton1]

(Original post by Christ Is Lord)
I think this could clarify a few things up for you;

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False...olic_idols.htm

I have never seen a website with a black background and red text that talked anything other than ****e.

[.eXe]

(Original post by Christ Is Lord)
I think this could clarify a few things up for you;

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False...olic_idols.htm

I agree with you. It really has become a form of idol worship, and this is why I try to avoid catholic churches. One other thing that bothers me is they spend too much time on the rituals and very little time on the sermon/teaching. I go to church to learn, not do all the gymnastics exercises that go on in catholic services. Stand up, repeat, sit, on knees, bow, stand, sing, sit, repeat, stand, pray, kneel, etc etc. The whole time I'm thinking...wheres the sermon at!!

[KCosmo]

(Original post by navarre)

In short, why all the fuss?

She's supposed to be the only person to have lived without sin and stuff. The "immaculate conception" isn't the conception of jesus, but the conception of mary, who is again the only person without to have lived without sin. She's in effect, the best a human can achieve.

I'm an atheist, but I went to a catholic state school, so I've been drilled on this

[KCosmo]

(Original post by .eXe)
I agree with you. It really has become a form of idol worship, and this is why I try to avoid catholic churches. One other thing that bothers me is they spend too much time on the rituals and very little time on the sermon/teaching. I go to church to learn, not do all the gymnastics exercises that go on in catholic services. Stand up, repeat, sit, on knees, bow, stand, sing, sit, repeat, stand, pray, kneel, etc etc. The whole time I'm thinking...wheres the sermon at!!

I think the hockey-cokey (if you don't know what this is, it's a children's song where you stand up, sit down, shake your leg multiple times) came from making fun of the church

Also, by definition admiration for a person cannot be idol worship. Idol worship needs to be the worship of a physical object or symbol as if it was a god. It's a bit rich hearing a christian accuse other christians of idol worship, when you're all equally crazy about your crucifixes

[.eXe]

(Original post by KCosmo)
I think the hockey-cokey (if you don't know what this is, it's a children's song where you stand up, sit down, shake your leg multiple times) came from making fun of the church

Also, by definition admiration for a person cannot be idol worship. Idol worship needs to be the worship of a physical object or symbol as if it was a god. It's a bit rich hearing a christian accuse other christians of idol worship, when you're all equally crazy about your crucifixes

Lol we don't worship the crucifix mate, that's a moot point tbh.

People use crucifixes just as a reminder of God.

For example, sometimes when I pray, I have the Bible in my hands. Does that mean the Bible is now my idol? No, it's just a representation of God...not God himself.

Typically idol worship means worshipping an effigy of something as God (putting flowers on it and bowing to that idol and all that stuff)

Christians don't do that (Catholics don't even do that, in a literal sense).

When I said idol worship earlier, I meant that they put up status of Mary in churches (sometimes I have seen the cross replaced by a statue of Mary). It's stuff like that, I disagree with, that's all. the parallel with crucifixes is incorrect.

[Leon Trotsky]

Eye candy. A statue of Mary stops queers staring at Jesus Christ's toned, rippling, bloodied torso when they're supposed to be worshipping.

[KCosmo]

(Original post by .eXe)
Lol we don't worship the crucifix mate, that's a moot point tbh.

People use crucifixes just as a reminder of God.

For example, sometimes when I pray, I have the Bible in my hands. Does that mean the Bible is now my idol? No, it's just a representation of God...not God himself.

Typically idol worship means worshipping an effigy of something as God (putting flowers on it and bowing to that idol and all that stuff)

Christians don't do that (Catholics don't even do that, in a literal sense).

When I said idol worship earlier, I meant that they put up status of Mary in churches (sometimes I have seen the cross replaced by a statue of Mary). It's stuff like that, I disagree with, that's all. the parallel with crucifixes is incorrect.

I know christians don't worship the crucifix. But just as you said it almost seemed like catholics are guilty of idol worship through mary, it seems to many people that christians in general are guilty of idol worship through the crucifix. Of course you don't worship the crucifix, it is just a symbol of an event, and my point is that in the same way catholics don't worship mary, but rather she is just a symbol (of a life without sin.)

Edit: Also, what is wrong with statue's of mary in churches? I don't mind either way myself (as I said, I'm atheist)

[Spaz Man]

Virgin birth and image of innocent Madonna figure I guess.

[.eXe]

(Original post by KCosmo)
I know christians don't worship the crucifix. But just as you said it almost seemed like catholics are guilty of idol worship through mary, it seems to many people that christians in general are guilty of idol worship through the crucifix. Of course you don't worship the crucifix, it is just a symbol of an event, and my point is that in the same way catholics don't worship mary, but rather she is just a symbol (of a life without sin.)

Edit: Also, what is wrong with statue's of mary in churches? I don't mind either way myself (as I said, I'm atheist)

Theres nothing wrong with the statue itself. I said it was wrong in certain churches, where the statue replaced the cross.

[gltw]

(Original post by KCosmo)
Also, what is wrong with statue's of mary in churches?

It's quite simple. God's law states that his people are not to make and use images like pagan religions do.

Exodus 20:4 KJV Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

You'll notice it says "Thou shalt not make" which shows us that if God commands something to be made ie. the Ark of the Covenant etc then it is right in the sight of God. Only when God directly commands a image to be made should it be done. For example the Golden Calf made as a symbol for God was forbidden. Exodus 32:7 KJV And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves: (8) They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

Often people want something physical to worship, to look to but God tells Christians to look to God alone not to images and idols.

[navarre]

(Original post by KCosmo)
She's supposed to be the only person to have lived without sin and stuff. The "immaculate conception" isn't the conception of jesus, but the conception of mary, who is again the only person without to have lived without sin. She's in effect, the best a human can achieve.

I'm an atheist, but I went to a catholic state school, so I've been drilled on this

But without sin almost sounds like she has a divine status. Also, giving birth to Jesus I'm sure is a great feat, but she didn't choose it, and she didn't do anything else great in her life, did she?

[rac1]

(Original post by navarre)
But without sin almost sounds like she has a divine status. Also, giving birth to Jesus I'm sure is a great feat, but she didn't choose it, and she didn't do anything else great in her life, did she?

well selfless acceptance at least...
http://bible.cc/luke/1-38.htm

[The_Lonely_Goatherd]

(Original post by .eXe)
I agree with you. It really has become a form of idol worship, and this is why I try to avoid catholic churches. One other thing that bothers me is they spend too much time on the rituals and very little time on the sermon/teaching. I go to church to learn, not do all the gymnastics exercises that go on in catholic services. Stand up, repeat, sit, on knees, bow, stand, sing, sit, repeat, stand, pray, kneel, etc etc. The whole time I'm thinking...wheres the sermon at!!

You've clearly been unfortunate in the Catholic churches you've been to then. The sermon is hugely important and there are plenty of good preachers about My own parish priest is a scary fo but he gives a damn impressive sermon and has a good sense of humour too, for example

(Original post by .eXe)
Theres nothing wrong with the statue itself. I said it was wrong in certain churches, where the statue replaced the cross.

Statues of Mary never replace a cruxifix in a Catholic church. Not quite sure where you're getting this all from Are you sure the churches you went to were Catholic?

(Original post by rac1)
well selfless acceptance at least...
http://bible.cc/luke/1-38.htm

You tell em!

[.eXe]

(Original post by The_Lonely_Goatherd)
You've clearly been unfortunate in the Catholic churches you've been to then. The sermon is hugely important and there are plenty of good preachers about My own parish priest is a scary fo but he gives a damn impressive sermon and has a good sense of humour too, for example




Statues of Mary never replace a cruxifix in a Catholic church. Not quite sure where you're getting this all from Are you sure the churches you went to were Catholic?





You tell em!

Wish I had pictures to show you but they were most certainly Catholic. I've been to them only a few times as they were the only churches close by in the city where I attended university. They were called St. marks Cathedral Bascilica and St. peters Cathedral Bascilica.

here's a picture of one of them I got from the website: if you look in the middle you will see the statue in the middle