Would you like Private schools to be banned? (POLL)
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You can't really knock people for not being in agreement with private education - I don't know where many of you live but I live 'up north and I couldn't afford to be privately educated at all
I am a real libertarian and I feel if someone makes lots of money by their own doing, that's fine, but for children to receive a better education based on the work of their parents seems unfair to me, and the fact that they get a better education than me seems unfair also. This is proven by the <10% of children who are privately educated yet the 50% or so that are in Oxbridge. Too kids in those areas, and to me when I was a bit younger, it's totally unfair
Equally anybody can easily achieve the same grades regardless of where they come from by hard work and determination, as I think I have with 10A*s from a state school, and I will always be proud that I've worked hard rather than be lifted into a position.
Furthermore I pity many of you publically schooled lot. You'll never get the real experience of dealing with real people - 15year old pregnant girls, smokers, alcoholics, those from real tough areas, those who'll be arrested and equally those who try really hard. Life will seem all cushion-y cushion-y in an unrealistic world. No matter if I was the richest person alive, I'd never send my kids to a Private school. They need to experience hard work in the real world.
Although the argument here is should be ban private schools. I don't really see this as the issue, but the issue itself being lets get state schools on the same level as private schools.
I
I am a real libertarian and I feel if someone makes lots of money by their own doing, that's fine, but for children to receive a better education based on the work of their parents seems unfair to me, and the fact that they get a better education than me seems unfair also. This is proven by the <10% of children who are privately educated yet the 50% or so that are in Oxbridge. Too kids in those areas, and to me when I was a bit younger, it's totally unfair
Equally anybody can easily achieve the same grades regardless of where they come from by hard work and determination, as I think I have with 10A*s from a state school, and I will always be proud that I've worked hard rather than be lifted into a position.
Furthermore I pity many of you publically schooled lot. You'll never get the real experience of dealing with real people - 15year old pregnant girls, smokers, alcoholics, those from real tough areas, those who'll be arrested and equally those who try really hard. Life will seem all cushion-y cushion-y in an unrealistic world. No matter if I was the richest person alive, I'd never send my kids to a Private school. They need to experience hard work in the real world.
Although the argument here is should be ban private schools. I don't really see this as the issue, but the issue itself being lets get state schools on the same level as private schools.
I
Original post by muddywaters51
One of the stupidist things I've heard.
Why not ban private healthcare too because of how "unfair" it is. While you're at it ban ferraris and mansions because it is unfair that some cannot afford these.
Did you realise there are actually people who wan't to ban legitimate businesses/organizations?
Why not ban private healthcare too because of how "unfair" it is. While you're at it ban ferraris and mansions because it is unfair that some cannot afford these.
Did you realise there are actually people who wan't to ban legitimate businesses/organizations?
suprising no it's not in the slightest bit suprising just like every other ' quick let's pull the ladder up behind us' stunt that labourites and other wishy-washys do ...
equality of opportunity is not achieved by dumbing down to the lowest common denominator , and there are far bigger issues that the funding arrangements of schooling as to why people are put off from applying to Oxford and Cambridge ( as statistics about their intake usually closely follow such rhetoric)
Original post by Malabarista
Troll OP is troll.
Just to add, I'm not against private schools, it's just that the question is stupid, it's as if asking 'Did you know there are people that drink milk?'
Just to add, I'm not against private schools, it's just that the question is stupid, it's as if asking 'Did you know there are people that drink milk?'
I never knew people like this existed because I don't surround myself with idiots.
Original post by Hopple
I think the argument is more along the lines of wanting equal opportunites (or as close to it as is possible) for as long as possible rather than jealousy.
Equal opportunities at the expense of others
Original post by prog2djent
The left wont stop unless everyone is united in below averaginess, "WE NEED MOAD EQUALUTEH", yeah, Ok, so what that means is not to improve education, but to take the top 20% and make them as equally mediocre and the bottom 40%
Equality via discrimination
seems legit
Original post by Rosalind
heaven forbid everyone have the same quality education irrelevant of their parents' income, those bastard poor kids who do they think they are
As far as I'm aware everyone has the same quality of education available to them but some choose not to take it even though they help fund it.
Original post by roh
Is this like racism but against stupid people?
Also given the post as a whole, if you're education is what private school gets you they're probably going to go out of business any day now.
Also given the post as a whole, if you're education is what private school gets you they're probably going to go out of business any day now.
I didnt even go to private school.
Original post by JongKey
I doubt they want to ban private schools, they just want better education for the less well off families.
There are people who seriously want to BAN private schools. lol
Original post by ApresAlkan
Everybody has a fundamental right to healthcare and education. They are necessities and not luxuries. I do not feel that banning private schools and healthcare is a good idea; just make public schools and hospitals better than the private opposition... The Nordic Welfare Model works, does it not?
Education and Healthcare are not human rights you joker. They are good things and things we want but they aren't rights.
Original post by meenu89
When I see threads like this I think of Diane Abbott.
Is that the black MP who said black moms are better than whites?
Original post by Azog 150
This is an interesting topic and has potential to be an interesting thread.
But your OP contains absolutely no argument for or against whatsoever.
What is your reasoning behind wanting to retain the private education system?
But your OP contains absolutely no argument for or against whatsoever.
What is your reasoning behind wanting to retain the private education system?
Private schools are legitimate businesses/organizations.
These people want to limit the choices and freedoms of the population
Do these people also want to ban homeschooling, private tutoring, specialist schools, private special needs schools?
Original post by prog2djent
The left wont stop unless everyone is united in below averaginess, "WE NEED MOAD EQUALUTEH", yeah, Ok, so what that means is not to improve education, but to take the top 20% and make them as equally mediocre and the bottom 40%
Your argument is driven by personal emotion and therefore is invalid.
I could easily say 'the right are like 'WEE NEED MOAR ECONOMIC FREEDURMM' herp derp
Original post by beepbeeprichie
Rich people subsidise the poor enough. Rich people pay tax to fund schools yet (many) still send their kids privately and pay for that. They are paying TWICE. Why on earth should they?
That applies to many areas of life today.
That applies to many areas of life today.
They choose to pay twice though. They're more than welcome at a state school, of which there are many of a great standard.
I just don't buy the "my parents worked for it" line. My parents worked their arses off all their lives, in extremely unpleasant jobs and spent a lot of time on the breadline. Thankfully we're not in that situation anymore, but they'd be a long way off being able to afford to send me to a private school. I'm sure people's parents did work hard, but i'm also sure that in most cases, they had opportunities that people like my parents never had because of their respective educational backgrounds. It's a vicious circle.
surely everyone should begin on the same starting block? What it comes down to is the wealthy are essentially "buying" opportunities for their children. I don't blame them for doing it, but the idea that those who can afford it can buy their children success over others who can't doesn't sit comfortably with me. Success in life should be purely down to your individual passion, effort, and intelligence. Not what you're parents income was.
I wouldn't mind banning private schools and I attend one.
Original post by muddywaters51
Equal opportunities at the expense of others
Equal opportunities at the expense of others
Indeed, but you might as well argue against all government organised communal spending if you think that's intrinsically a bad thing.
Original post by James0507
They choose to pay twice though. They're more than welcome at a state school, of which there are many of a great standard.
<snip>.
<snip>.
hence things like the assisted places scheme, bursaries etc or even a voucher scheme,
a voucher scheme would not only allow more people the choice to access private schools because of the cut down in the 'paying twice' aspect , but would also go hand in hand with 'free schools' as proposed by the current coalition government and ' money follows the pupil' principle.
The principle problem to address is whether or not to allow top-up fees and to what extent these fees would be allowed in schools that are or were State schools, Academies or set up as free schools with state support vs schools set up and run by private organisations without state underwriting ... acknowledging that state schools do charge for subsistence on trips and extra curricular activities ...
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by Rosalind
heaven forbid everyone have the same quality education irrelevant of their parents' income, those bastard poor kids who do they think they are
x
x
Of course we could achieve equal education opportunities by banning public schools. We could also achieve this by banning schools altogether.
The real solution the country's education problem is to let every parent to pay for their own child's education and have the government offer means tested loans and grants (like they do for universities at the moment). That way public schools will be more affordable to average parent, which will increase competition between the state and private sector.
(edited 11 years ago)
In a society which claims to be civilised and even progressive, buying education is just not a notion that should exist. Education is an answer (directly or indirectly) to almost all of the world's problems, therefore it just doesn't make sense for people to be able to buy 'superior' standard schooling. My parents asked me if I wanted to attend private school and I refused. I go to the local state secondary and I think it has made me a more well-rounded person, encountering a much wider variety of people from different cultures and backgrounds, and I feel sorry for people who haven't had that opportunity as they go to private schools.
Original post by TopHat
I wouldn't mind banning private schools and I attend one.
Champagne Socialist
The argument (imo) is based upon the finding that comprehensive school students outperform private school students in Higher Education when you control for entry requirements. The argument is that private schooling doesn't work to educate individuals to a better degree so they are smarter (which would also be reflected in their degree results), but provide a temporary advantage which doesn't live beyond a few years. This advantage in turn disadvantages comprehensive school pupils in a work (job marketplace) and educational (university) level. The private school pupils who get these better results, as illustrated by my point about degree performance, aren't 'smarter' than their competition, but have been able to play the system by learning the curriculum rather than the content.
If private school pupils were actually smarter than comprehensives, than i'd argue that we need to emulate this more. But if you think of education in terms of life skills and long-term benefits, what i have read suggests that going to a private school does not actually benefit you in the long-term, except by providing a cloak of your mediocrity.
If private school pupils were actually smarter than comprehensives, than i'd argue that we need to emulate this more. But if you think of education in terms of life skills and long-term benefits, what i have read suggests that going to a private school does not actually benefit you in the long-term, except by providing a cloak of your mediocrity.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by Muscovite
Champagne Socialist
If you say so.
Original post by muddywaters51
Is that the black MP who said black moms are better than whites?
Is that the black MP who said black moms are better than whites?
Yes, more or less. She is also famous for arguing/ voting against private schools and yet sending her child to one.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by electriic_ink
Of course we could achieve equal education opportunities by banning public schools. We could also achieve this by banning schools altogether.
The real solution the country's education problem is to let every parent to pay for their own child's education and have the government offer means tested loans and grants (like they do for universities at the moment). That way public schools will be more affordable to average parent, which will increase competition between the state and private sector.
The real solution the country's education problem is to let every parent to pay for their own child's education and have the government offer means tested loans and grants (like they do for universities at the moment). That way public schools will be more affordable to average parent, which will increase competition between the state and private sector.
while not as extreme what is your view on a voucher scheme that covers the average cost of a state School place ? as a cash loan and grant scheme would just lead to the chav parents spending it on stella and lambert and butlers ... as they do with child benefit
Original post by Rosalind
So your saying if a kid has poor parents they don't deserve the same as a child with rich parents
So your saying if a kid has poor parents they don't deserve the same as a child with rich parents
I don't think the child with rich parents deserves a better education, in the same way that I don't think that children with clever parents deserve help with homework from their parents. It's just the way the world is and we have to work out how best to deal with this inequality.
Surely the solution isn't to ban the best schools since then no one is getting a high quality education. The problem imo is that when it comes to school choice, most parents are presented with a free option and an option which is prohibitively expensive. Naturally, they choose the free school. And, since that school is free
(i) the school has little incentive to please the parents
(ii) the parents have little incentive to change schools if they are dissatisifed (since it's not their money they're spending)
resulting in a mediocre quality of education.
I believe that if we levied SOME of the £7,000/yr cost on to the parent and made it easier to switch schools, we would help solve problems.
Original post by dannyoh
Equally anybody can easily achieve the same grades regardless of where they come from by hard work and determination, as I think I have with 10A*s from a state school, and I will always be proud that I've worked hard rather than be lifted into a position.
Okay, first of all, very well done for your exceptional grades, you've obviously worked very hard for them, kudos to you. However, your statement, I feel, is very unfair. There seems to be some kind of idea that you can 'buy' your grades. You can't. Most private school kids are constantly stressed and looking for ways to improve themselves, 90% isn't good enough for most of them and they work so damn hard because they are constantly grateful for the opportunities that their parents give them as well as feeling guilty that their parents pay so much for their education. It's completely unfair to say that private school kids 'bought' their grades because the vast majority work so, so hard to achieve them.
Original post by James0507
They choose to pay twice though. They're more than welcome at a state school, of which there are many of a great standard.
BS. That's like saying "you're more than welcome to take drugs but we'll lock you up when you do". Parents do not choose to pay twice. They are coerced into paying that tax (you know what happens when you owe HMRC money, right?). Sure they could pay for their child to go to a state school but the fact is they don't. And that is what matters.
Original post by James0507
I just don't buy the "my parents worked for it" line. My parents worked their arses off all their lives, in extremely unpleasant jobs and spent a lot of time on the breadline. Thankfully we're not in that situation anymore, but they'd be a long way off being able to afford to send me to a private school. I'm sure people's parents did work hard, but i'm also sure that in most cases, they had opportunities that people like my parents never had because of their respective educational backgrounds. It's a vicious circle.
surely everyone should begin on the same starting block? What it comes down to is the wealthy are essentially "buying" opportunities for their children. I don't blame them for doing it, but the idea that those who can afford it can buy their children success over others who can't doesn't sit comfortably with me. Success in life should be purely down to your individual passion, effort, and intelligence. Not what you're parents income was.
I just don't buy the "my parents worked for it" line. My parents worked their arses off all their lives, in extremely unpleasant jobs and spent a lot of time on the breadline. Thankfully we're not in that situation anymore, but they'd be a long way off being able to afford to send me to a private school. I'm sure people's parents did work hard, but i'm also sure that in most cases, they had opportunities that people like my parents never had because of their respective educational backgrounds. It's a vicious circle.
surely everyone should begin on the same starting block? What it comes down to is the wealthy are essentially "buying" opportunities for their children. I don't blame them for doing it, but the idea that those who can afford it can buy their children success over others who can't doesn't sit comfortably with me. Success in life should be purely down to your individual passion, effort, and intelligence. Not what you're parents income was.
LOL. You do realise that whether you are intelligent and hard-working are no less luck than having wealthy parents?
BTW I hope you, as a relatively wealthy westerner, would be prepared to accept the government taking huge amounts of your money to give in foreign aid (surely some Somalian's need for food outranks your desire for a new xbox, right?).
Original post by Muscovite
Your argument is driven by personal emotion and therefore is invalid.
I could easily say 'the right are like 'WEE NEED MOAR ECONOMIC FREEDURMM' herp derp
I could easily say 'the right are like 'WEE NEED MOAR ECONOMIC FREEDURMM' herp derp
So if anyone has an emotional tie to some idea then any argument is automatically invalidated. If so god knows why I studied formal logic for two years...
Original post by Muscovite
Your argument is driven by personal emotion and therefore is invalid.
I could easily say 'the right are like 'WEE NEED MOAR ECONOMIC FREEDURMM' herp derp
I could easily say 'the right are like 'WEE NEED MOAR ECONOMIC FREEDURMM' herp derp
Tehe, apart from the fact I am actually correct, find me 100 people who range from the far-left to the centre/center left (no, not labour, a right wing social democratic party, centre left being democratic socialism like the greens), and you will find 100 people that think there needs to be more equality in education, and that private schools shouldn't exist, and then maybe 70%ish think grammar schools shouldn't exist either.
Now take 100 from the (economic) right, from the anarcho capitalists on the far-right and the social democrats on the centre/centre right, and you will have a wide variety of idea on economic freedom, and, to hazard a guess, I'd say 35% say we don't need more economics freedom.
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