UCAS application question
University course discussion for law.
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UCAS application questionhey guysss, one of my unis is asking for my english proficiency records, so basically my GCSE english language grade, but on my UCAS form, i omitted my GCSE short course PE grade, do you think this will make any difference to my application?
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Re: Lying in your UCAS application?I must have missed the UCAS (Lie On Your Form and You Go To Jail) Act 2009.(Original post by Weeves)
I'm thinking a Law degree may not be the right course for you.
Lying in your UCAS application is ILLEGAL.
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Re: Lying in your UCAS application?The offence is section 2 Fraud Act 2006 with the gain being any bursary or student finance received.(Original post by chalks)
I must have missed the UCAS (Lie On Your Form and You Go To Jail) Act 2009.
Most (all?) of the prosecutions for obtaining university places fraudulently have related to nursing courses, firstly because the NHS has a counter-fraud unit, the NHS is more willing to prosecute rather than simply have the student expelled and the link between the lie and the nursing student's bursary looks more direct. -
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Re: Lying in your UCAS application?Th emboldened bit is the key point though isn't it? Lying on a UCAS form isn't illegal unless (and it's a big "unless") one is trying to secure some form of financial advantage through the false representation.(Original post by nulli tertius)
The offence is section 2 Fraud Act 2006 with the gain being any bursary or student finance received.
Most (all?) of the prosecutions for obtaining university places fraudulently have related to nursing courses, firstly because the NHS has a counter-fraud unit, the NHS is more willing to prosecute rather than simply have the student expelled and the link between the lie and the nursing student's bursary looks more direct.
It seems to me that simply lying on a form so as to secure a better university place than one was entitled to expect, isn't fraud. As you say, the NHS cases have been successful because of the ability to link the required intention with the required financial gain. -
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Re: Lying in your UCAS application?I wonder how the argument "I lied to get in to Durham but if I hadn't lied I would have got into the University of Morecambe and they had the same fees" would play before the court?(Original post by chalks)
Th emboldened bit is the key point though isn't it? Lying on a UCAS form isn't illegal unless (and it's a big "unless") one is trying to secure some form of financial advantage through the false representation.
It seems to me that simply lying on a form so as to secure a better university place than one was entitled to expect, isn't fraud. As you say, the NHS cases have been successful because of the ability to link the required intention with the required financial gain. -
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Re: Lying in your UCAS application?Recess for the judge to make sure that there is a University of Morecambe?(Original post by nulli tertius)
I wonder how the argument "I lied to get in to Durham but if I hadn't lied I would have got into the University of Morecambe and they had the same fees" would play before the court? -
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Re: Lying in your UCAS application?The question will be whether the individual lied so as to access lower fees, as opposed to a better university.(Original post by nulli tertius)
I wonder how the argument "I lied to get in to Durham but if I hadn't lied I would have got into the University of Morecambe and they had the same fees" would play before the court?
The original point stands. It isn't illegal to falsify your UCAS form, unless you're doing so to secure a financial gain (which wouldn't, in my view, extend to obtaining better future career prospects). -
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Re: Lying in your UCAS application?I agree with your second point regarding future career prospects.(Original post by chalks)
The question will be whether the individual lied so as to access lower fees, as opposed to a better university.
The original point stands. It isn't illegal to falsify your UCAS form, unless you're doing so to secure a financial gain (which wouldn't, in my view, extend to obtaining better future career prospects).
I am not so sure a court wouldn't say that the accused secure a gain by the student support contingent on the fraudulently obtained Durham place and they are not interested in whether the same financial advantage could have been obtained by a different route legitimately.
I do agree that it is only the financial advantage that makes lying on the UCAS form a crime, but that is in reality the general method by which England deals with offences involving the lying.Last edited by nulli tertius; 01-07-2012 at 06:41. -
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Re: Lying in your UCAS application?Not sure I understand your second para. Seems to me it would be particularly hard for the prosecution to reach the evidentiary bar necessary to show that X's lie on the UCAS form was for the purpose of, or with the intention of, securing a financial gain? It's not enough, is it, that the financial gain be a convenient side benefit to the misrep on the form - it has to have been the intent of the misrep for the purposes of fraud?(Original post by nulli tertius)
I agree with your second point regarding future career prospects.
I am not so sure a court wouldn't say that the accused secure a gain by the student support contingent on the fraudulently obtained Durham place and they are not interested in whether the same financial advantage could have been obtained by a different route legitimately.
I do agree that it is only the financial advantage that makes lying on the UCAS form a crime, but that is in reality the general method by which England deals with offences involving the lying. -
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Re: Lying in your UCAS application?It has to be an intent rather than the intent.(Original post by chalks)
Not sure I understand your second para. Seems to me it would be particularly hard for the prosecution to reach the evidentiary bar necessary to show that X's lie on the UCAS form was for the purpose of, or with the intention of, securing a financial gain? It's not enough, is it, that the financial gain be a convenient side benefit to the misrep on the form - it has to have been the intent of the misrep for the purposes of fraud?
The CPS has managed to satisfy the burden in the NHS cases, despite the accused's primary aim presumably being to obtain the nursing qualification.
I suspect it is something that where A and B are linked (either inevitably or by the accused's actions), it isn't open to the accused to say that he only intended A and B was an unintended collateral benefit.
My point was slightly different, which doesn't arise in the NHS cases, where the same financial benefit but not the same academic benefit could arise regardless of the deceit. Good universities and not so good universities charge the same fees and the same maintenance support is available regardless of university. In all the NHS cases I have seen, the candidate wouldn't have been admitted to any university if the candidate had told the truth (immigration status or non-existent qualifications).Last edited by nulli tertius; 02-07-2012 at 06:45. -
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Re: UCAS application questionWhat a load of patronising ****. I agree that lying on the application form is morally wrong, however the OP is not 5 years of age and will have to live with their conscience. There is another point that for a successful prosecution under the fraud act the Ghosh test would have to be satisfied which has a subjective element, so without getting directly into the mind of the OP it is not 100% clear that a prosecution would be successful. Never mind though Weeves I am sure you will go to heaven!I'm thinking a Law degree may not be the right course for you.
Lying in your UCAS application is ILLEGAL.Last edited by Potally_Tissed; 03-07-2012 at 18:40. Reason: Swear filter -
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Re: UCAS application questionThe university will highly likely have your unique learner number (http://www.learningrecordsservice.org.uk/products/uln/) that has followed you around for a while now.
There is every possibility that they'll verify all your results from GCSE, AS and A Level against this before accepting you. It's the uni's choice what to do with this info but it could lea to an awkward conversation with the admissions tutor if they ring up and ask 'why did you lie?'.
