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Question to religious believers...

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    Most of you think that religion/God gives us our morals, and without religion/God we would have no morals what so ever. Which in my opinion is dumb, ignorant and the slipperly slope argument.

    Therefore can you answer me this question, which is inspired by Christopher Hitchens please:

    Q. Name me an ethical statement made or an action performed by a believer that could not have been made or performed by a non-believer.
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    I'm an atheist but how about all the charity done in the name of god?
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    (Original post by thomaskurian89)
    I'm an atheist but how about all the charity done in the name of god?
    Athiests can do their own charity work, and they do. We don't need a God to tell us to be generous and help others. So that isn't a valid point.
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    (Original post by Design_Me_A_Tom)
    Most of you think that religion gives us our morals, and without religion we would have no morals what so ever. Which in my opinion is dumb, ignorant and the slipperly slope argument.
    So you've spoken to every religious believer in the world to ascertain that most believe that morality comes from religion have you? Well in my opinion your argument is dumb and ignorant.

    Religious believers don't believe morals come from religion; we believe morals come from God. Therefore even if you don't believe in God he still gave you morality and so you still have the ability to make moral choices.
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    I seem to remember Hitchens, in the debate with his brother, giving two responses to that question which made him think. The first, which he did, of course, dismiss as a tautology, was that he heard one person state that an exorcism could not be performed by a non-believer.

    The second, to which Hitch said he 'didn't know', concerned John Donne's devotional poetry. Broadly, could artists (musicians, poets, painters, sculptors etc.) create their Art without their belief? CH said that an example was Verdi, who didn't believe, and still created beautiful music. And I remember Sam Harris saying that question is irrelevant because if they painted / wrote as a secularist then the artists would, in a religious society, be killed.
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    (Original post by funsongfactory)
    So you've spoken to every religious believer in the world to ascertain that most believe that morality comes from religion have you? Well in my opinion your argument is dumb and ignorant.

    Religious believers don't believe morals come from religion; we believe morals come from God. Therefore even if you don't believe in God he still gave you morality and so you still have the ability to make moral choices.
    Firstly I said 'most' not all. Secondly you have just said 'we believe morals come from God' which is the same thing as what I claimed that they came from religion which is a belief in god. Maybe I should have made it more clear next time.
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    (Original post by Design_Me_A_Tom)
    Firstly I said 'most' not all. Secondly you have just said 'we believe morals come from God' which is the same thing as what I claimed that they came from religion which is a belief in god. Maybe I should have made it more clear next time.
    Yes but you clearly have not spoken to most religious believers in the world.

    No, they are not the same thing at all.
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    (Original post by funsongfactory)
    Yes but you clearly have not spoken to most religious believers in the world.

    No, they are not the same thing at all.
    If you are saying most people do not believe this, then why do so many use this argument in a defence of religion and to combat any criticisms of it being damaging to society?
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    (Original post by Design_Me_A_Tom)
    If you are saying most people do not believe this, then why do so many use this argument in a defence of religion and to combat any criticisms of it being damaging to society?
    There you go again.
    Obviously know a lot of people then.
    I'm religious but I wouldn't suggest morals are only for religious people or that morals come from God as a defence for belief in a religion.
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    (Original post by Design_Me_A_Tom)
    Most of you think that religion/God gives us our morals, and without religion/God we would have no morals what so ever. Which in my opinion is dumb, ignorant and the slipperly slope argument.

    Therefore can you answer me this question, which is inspired by Christopher Hitchens please:

    Q. Name me an ethical statement made or an action performed by a believer that could not have been made or performed by a non-believer.
    I think you're asking the wrong question, to address this point.
    The question should be "Name me an ehtical statement made or an action performed by a believer that probably would not have been performed by that person, had they been a non-believer".

    The assertion being made is that without religion, we would be much more lacking in morals overall - not because we would all be physically unable to perform moral actions, but because we would be less likely to want to perform them. I agree that theoretically, all atheists could start behaving exactly like religious people if they wanted, making you think "well what is the need for religion then"? But the point is that it's not likely that they'll ever do this.

    For example: It's very unlikely that you'll ever see a Muslim or Jew on the Jeremy Kyle show, the reason being that will probably be avoiding the kinds of things which lead to people being there, such as alcohol and sex outside of marriage. So abstaining from these may be considered to be a moral action, as it works to the advantage of themselves, and of society.
    Whereas a person who does not adhere to any religion, although he still has the ability to perform the same moral action of abstaining from alcohol and sex before marriage, he is much less likely to actually go ahead and do it.
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    Pray for someone you love, prayer requires faith, an atheist has no faith.
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    sorry for conveyance,
    but,as i think the god for only reason for our unknown question.
    ""I am in every religion as the thread through a string of pearls. Wherever thou seest extraordinary holiness and extraordinary power raising and purifying humanity, know thou that I am there.""-that's for GOD
    "By a conscious effort of the mind we can stand aloof from actions and their consequences; and all things, good and bad, go by us like a torrent." -for us
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    (Original post by Design_Me_A_Tom)
    Most of you think that religion/God gives us our morals, and without religion/God we would have no morals what so ever. Which in my opinion is dumb, ignorant and the slipperly slope argument.

    Therefore can you answer me this question, which is inspired by Christopher Hitchens please:

    Q. Name me an ethical statement made or an action performed by a believer that could not have been made or performed by a non-believer.
    Firstly, not all religions make this claim. Judaism, for example, does not. At least not in the sense that God revealed morality directly to humans as he did other Laws.

    Secondly, and more importantly, the question as stated misses out a really crucial assumption that, when included, renders the question meaningless. The assumption is that an act is only moral or ethical if an atheist would also consider it to be moral or ethical. Were we not making such an assumption then the answer would be simple - taking communion might be, refraining from work on the Sabbath, not eating pork when tempted etc etc etc. Clearly, then, the question ought to really be:

    "Name me an ethical statement made or an action performed by a believer that could not have been made or performed by a non-believer but which the non-believer would also consider ethical.."

    And now we see how empty the challenge really is.

    And if you doubt that I'm right then explain what is wrong with the answer (for me as a Jew):

    "not working on the Sabbath"?
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    (Original post by kashim91)
    Pray for someone you love, prayer requires faith, an atheist has no faith.
    (Original post by UniOfLife)
    Firstly, not all religions make this claim. Judaism, for example, does not. At least not in the sense that God revealed morality directly to humans as he did other Laws.

    Secondly, and more importantly, the question as stated misses out a really crucial assumption that, when included, renders the question meaningless. The assumption is that an act is only moral or ethical if an atheist would also consider it to be moral or ethical. Were we not making such an assumption then the answer would be simple - taking communion might be, refraining from work on the Sabbath, not eating pork when tempted etc etc etc. Clearly, then, the question ought to really be:

    "Name me an ethical statement made or an action performed by a believer that could not have been made or performed by a non-believer but which the non-believer would also consider ethical.."

    And now we see how empty the challenge really is.

    And if you doubt that I'm right then explain what is wrong with the answer (for me as a Jew):

    "not working on the Sabbath"?
    Finally! Someone noticed!
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    (Original post by funsongfactory)
    Yes but you clearly have not spoken to most religious believers in the world.

    No, they are not the same thing at all.
    I can say that most people are not fond of Adolf Hitler with complete confidence without asking them. Same principle...
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    The other question asked by Hitchens was: Name an evil act committed by a religious person that could not be committed by an atheist. His answer to this was acts of terrorism committed by religious people. But atheists can and do perform acts of terrorism.
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    (Original post by SpiggyTopes)
    I can say that most people are not fond of Adolf Hitler with complete confidence without asking them. Same principle...
    Uh no, it really really isn't!
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    (Original post by thomaskurian89)
    The other question asked by Hitchens was: Name an evil act committed by a religious person that could not be committed by an atheist. His answer to this was acts of terrorism committed by religious people. But atheists can and do perform acts of terrorism.
    I think the question posed 'was an act of evil committed in the name of religion'. No acts of war or aggression were or are committed ' in the name of Atheism'. They may have been committed BY an atheist following a misguided political ideology.
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    I miss Hitch...
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    (Original post by funsongfactory)
    So you've spoken to every religious believer in the world to ascertain that most believe that morality comes from religion have you? Well in my opinion your argument is dumb and ignorant.

    Religious believers don't believe morals come from religion; we believe morals come from God. Therefore even if you don't believe in God he still gave you morality and so you still have the ability to make moral choices.
    Assuming that you're a christian or muslim, had God given Eve the knowledge of morality before she ate the apple?
    -If not, how was she supposed to know that it was a sin to do so? Therefore the the notion of original sin and its redemption by the crusifiction of Jesus is a farce.
    -If so, how was it that the apple contained the sole knowledge of morality when Eve already had it?

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