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Are 'native' Irish and British the same race?

A while ago i was having a discussion with some people about this in our history class and they were sure that Irish people are not of the same race as say scottish or welsh.

Even if you do argue that People of Norman origin are not the same as Gaelic then surely these people do share common ancestory and therefore are the same people.

But today i was reminded of it because i got my doctors form back and it asked me to state what race i am, either white british, white irish, or white other (presuming slavic peoples).

Is this differentiation purely for 'political' purposes to stress the separation of the countries or are the two different?

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Reply 1

Psyk

Define race.

This is why the concept of race is rarely used in any scientific sense, it's too hard to define where one race begins and ends. Are white people all one race? Are Russians a different race to Swedes?

I think that form really should have asked for your ethnicity. Ethnicity is different from race because it also takes cultural and language differences into account.

Reply 2

Snagprophet

Well they're European so they're the same race. If you mean civilisations like Celts and Germanics then no. These civilisations interbred and intermarried. The modern equivalent of such a civilsation is nation states like the UK.

Edit: Explain your neg

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 3

Bronze Thistle

Yes they are the same race. Different ethnicities however.

Reply 4

Chi019

Paper on European genetic substructure here.

An interesting observation in this study is that within the “northern” European population group, individuals of Irish descent showed substantial differences in substructure compared to participants of Scandinavian, Central, and Eastern Europe descent. It also appears that United Kingdom individuals were intermediate between the other non-Irish groups and those of Irish descent further supporting an east/west gradient (Table 2). However, the later observation is based on small numbers of individuals (six 4GP United Kingdom individuals). It is unclear whether these relationships may reflect remnants of early populations including differences in Mesolithic or Neolithic contributions to the Irish population 5,000–6,000 years ago [28], or later Celtic contributions. An extensive Neolithic contribution from the Iberian peninsular is consistent with Irish archeological information but it is unknown whether this population group survived [28,29]. As discussed above, it is difficult to determine the relationship between certain population groups and the suggestion of a cline extending from the Spanish to Irish population is tenuous based on the current data. However, we note that there is modest support for such a cline in both PC2 and PC3 (Figures 2C and 6)

Reply 5

democracyforum

Original post by Psyk

Where one ends and begins ? Sure you can.

Can you tell the difference between a red bell pepper and an orange one ?
They might look similar to some people, but there is enough difference between them.

Reply 6

Psyk

Original post by democracyforum

Well yes, if you look at two extremes there are obvious differences. But there are people and entire groups of people that don't obviously fit into one of the small set of races. Genetic variation is too continuous to fit into a discrete set of races.

For example are Pakistanis and Afghans the same race? If they are different races, what is it that makes them different races?

Reply 7

RyanT

Different ethnicity of a wider northern European race.

Reply 8

Bronze Thistle

Original post by RyanT

Different ethnicity of a wider northern European race.

This

Reply 9

MancStudent098

My dark age history is a bit dodgy but I'm fairly sure that the Scotii came from Ireland.

That said it's a bit pointless trying to define people into discrete racial categories anyway.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 10

democracyforum

Original post by Psyk

Pakistani and Afghan are nationalities.
Within nationalities there is sometimes different ethnic groups.

Also, the boundaries have already been determined and are socially accepted.

Look at wikipedia, list of ethnic groups.
Also look at the British census.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classification_of_ethnicity_in_the_United_Kingdom

Reply 11

Psyk

Original post by democracyforum

Ah, now you're talking about ethnic groups, not races. I suppose physical attributes (such as skin colour) are one aspect of ethnicity, but they also take into account culture and language.

I'm not saying the idea of race doesn't exist at all, it's just that it don't see how there can be a discrete number of races. However many races you say there are, there will be people who don't clearly fit into any of them (and not just people who have parents of different races).

Reply 12

Sharpshooter

No English, Scottish and Welsh are clearly the same race.

The Irish are completely different.

Reply 13

Suetonius

But of course. The human race.

Reply 14

democracyforum

Original post by Psyk

Your point that some people cannot fit into the established categories, proves what ?

Reply 15

Psyk

Original post by democracyforum

Your point that some people cannot fit into the established categories, proves what ?

I'm saying that it's very hard to say whether Irish and British people are different races. There has been so much contact between the two populations you can't really identify a clear line between the two in terms of physical attributes.

Reply 16

Snagprophet

What is interesting is why anyone's interesting in a dividing distinction between them.

Reply 17

Flair91

Yes Irish and British are pretty much genetically indistinguishable.

Reply 18

Sharpshooter

Original post by Flair91

Yes Irish and British are pretty much genetically indistinguishable.

Really?? A lot of people said I couldn't be English as I wasn't racially anglo-saxon/germanic (my parents are Irish).

Reply 19

Flair91

They are referring to "Anglo-Saxon wipe out theory" which basically posits that the majority of English ancestors originated in the North-western germans plains and Holland. It has been disproven. The genetic stock the English derive from is predominately pre-roman peoples, AKA the Celts, from the Iberian penninsula. Whilst we have had a little influence from Germanic and Norse influences(but so has the rest of Britain, Dublin was founded by Vikings!).

Anyway for your own personal situation your friends are idiotic. If your parents are both Irish then obviously your not going to be "Germanic".