Oxford Brookes University

Oxford

Oxilp lpc thrown out!

As many of you have now heard the LPC at Oxford Brookes is being closed down from September 2013. This news has come to a shock to all current lpc students - both full time and part timers.

There are also many students who would have accepted oxilp and thus rejected other institutions - they too are left hanging.

As a student from the institution I am personally disgusted with this decision. What I do not understand is that the University decided to scrap the LPC because it was not making enough profit from the course. I mean, come on, £9-10k per student is that not enough? If the diploma is given jointly surely Oxford University should step in - I am sure they are able to dip in their pockets. On the other side, why are wasteful degrees still in existence - when one of the best staffed and structured professional courses is being thrown out??

If there are other students affected by this do join and comment on the thread.

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Reply 1

LexiswasmyNexis

Original post by Lawyertobee

How much does it cost to put on the LPC?

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Oxford Brookes University

Oxford

Reply 2

mja

Original post by flavius11

Why should Oxford (and through their tuition fees its students) have to pay for you? You lost all level of sympathy from me through your arrogant sense of entitlement.

Because the University of Oxford awards the OXILP Postgraduate Diploma in Legal Practice jointly with Brooks?

Reply 3

mja

Original post by flavius11

That doesn't mean that its students should have to subsidise everyone taking the course, especially when it's closed for being uneconomical. Every penny that goes into an uneconomical course gets taken away from other courses, and frankly I see no fairness in demanding that others pay to support your professional qualification. Oxford undergrads/postgrads are not a cash cow to fund professional qualifications for other people.

Except that that is how the entire university is funded... If only economical courses were run, the University would close the whole of the humanities division and most of social sciences division. Medical sciences division would quickly secede with all the most generous external funding, leaving just MPLS and the law faculty left over to more or less break even. Thank goodness this isn't how the University operates!

Reply 4

mja

Original post by flavius11

The difference is that the LPC is a professional qualification, not a degree. It is therefore funded entirely differently, with the LPC gaining no government funding nor being eligible for student loans. Given the structure of the financing system treats this qualification as different to a undergraduate degree it is not reasonable or sensible to think they should be funded from the same pool of resources. Resources which are meant for undergraduate or postgraduate degrees should not be spent on things outside of that which is what you seem to want.

First, that is true of almost all Masters-level degrees too - there is no Government funding and no tuition fee loan for almost any of them. So of course they are run on the basis that they should break even, and in the long term will be discontinued if they don't. But that's a long long way from asserting a right, on purely economic grounds, to terminate the course half way through, and before making offers to new students.

Secondly, the "pool of resources" at the University of Oxford is only made up in part of Government funding and tuition fees. The great majority of the cost of teaching undergraduate students is met from the University's own private resources. Whilst the University might well properly decide that that priority for these resources lies in undergraduate teaching, research or indeed anywhere else, this doesn't entitle it to allow the plug to be pulled on a course which it could continue to fund until it is fairly and properly wound down.

By way of a declaration of interest, I have no connection to OXILP or its or any other LPC course. I do hold Bachelors, Masters and Doctoral degrees of the University of Oxford. My interest is purely in the University meeting its obligations.

Reply 5

LexiswasmyNexis

I don't really understand what all this fuss is about. The only real 'obligation' here is towards those who are half way through their course. Given that all LPC courses are pretty much the same, I'm confident those students will get transferred across.

Given the recent 'shakey' nature of continuing GDL and LPC provision by the smaller law schools, I'd say that the withdrawal of the course was a foreseeable risk.

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Reply 6

evantej

Original post by mja

This is false. The arts and humanities cross-subsidise most other subjects because tuition-fees are the same across the board, you can have more students, and they costs less to deliver. The social background of most medical students mean those courses would not close down. It is the engineering and science courses that would close down.

Reply 7

maturetrainee

Whilst the argument over who pays is topical, my main issue is this University's decision to cancel a course part way through.

The part time students will have paid their fees, with legitimate expectation of completing the course.

To be cut off in this manner is at best unprofessional and at worse destroys the reputation of this institution. Serious questions need to be asked by current and prospective students!!

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Reply 8

Rybee

With all due respect, I'm sure it was a decision with only one sustainable choice.

Do you think the issue of it's financial stability cropped up in a Friday afternoon e-mail and by Monday there wasn't much feedback, so on Tuesday a 'Send to All' went out saying it was shut? I'm sure if there was something that could have prevented it from not being provided then it would have been examined extensively. People have lost jobs over the decision, it obviously wasn't an easy one to make.

I mean come on... Use your ****ing brain? Personally, I chose not to do the LPC because I was put off by the competition, yet some posts on here are highly encouraging and have me second guessing that decision.

And just in case you're curious I'd go to Nottingham Law School, it's better anyway :wink:

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 9

maturetrainee

Rybee, my point exactly!

Why did they sign people on to a two year course and take their money, when they clearly had the course in their sights for closure long before September last year?

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Reply 10

LexiswasmyNexis

Original post by maturetrainee

Probably because cancelling the PT course part way through probably isn't that much of a big deal.

1. The students will likely have only paid for the first year anyway

2. The LPC is so standard that the students can be transferred elsewhere if they need to be.

It is an inconvenience but I don't think it really damages reputations.

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Reply 11

maturetrainee

Probably not without SRA help! Most providers do not complete stage 1 of LPC until second year of PT course, mine certainly didn't! Cannot transfer without completing stage 1 according to SRA website.

Hence, I guess, the 'in limbo' tag line on lawyer2b article. Seems an ill thought out closure by the Uni without checking the needs of ALL their students. Or maybe they feel a handful of PT guys are collateral damage!! Either way, very embarrassing for Brookes.

Par for the course in 'business case' led decisions... Eyes open people!!!

http://ml2b.thelawyer.com/3002159.article?mobilesite=enabled

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Reply 12

LexiswasmyNexis

Original post by maturetrainee

I feel that whether the SRA has to get involved or not is an irrelevance. The fact is that something will be worked out for those students.

The relocation issue is surely more of an inconvenience than anything else. I maintain that this closure should not have been to any students enrol long on the course in the past two years. Falling applications has been an issue highlighted year on year.

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Reply 13

Raiden10

Original post by Rybee

And just in case you're curious I'd go to Nottingham Law School, it's better anyway :wink:

Stabby stabby stab stab.

Reply 14

Lawyertobee

Original post by flavius11

It's such an easy qualification to do elsewhere; they can just transfer. Better that than have to give them a woeful standard of teaching because they haven't got the funding to do so. If anything it's a bit of a blessing in disguise for the people on the course I think...

There are a number of issues I would like to point out with the message you have posted,

1. Easy qualification - not really

2. How can you say "they can just transfer": evidently you have not been in a position of change, neither does it seem like you are a person of responsibilities, commitments, family or a full time job. It is an insult for you do simply say its easy for someone to be transferred from one course to another. I guarantee if the same happened to you, you too would face many difficulties. Not entirely sure what kind of lawyer you intend to me. But I have to say you have no heart.

3. If you have not been to OXILP then please do not comment irresponsibly, you mouth is clearly bigger than your brain. If you have not experienced the teaching then don't comment - did you not learn that when you were young? If you did go to OXILP; it was probably you at fault.

4. Blessing in disguise; judging by the negativity among the redundant staff and students both FT and PT alike, I most definitely do not agree with that last statement of yours.

5. As for your previous comments: if the professional course is awarded both my the University of Oxford and Oxford Brookes; then yes, it should be funded by the university. I guess you have not seen the endowments of the university. Oh and whilst I am saying this, the University of Oxford does have a lot money to allocate - especially when it comes to further education. Having worked within the University - I know. So get your facts straight before you talk.

Reply 15

LexiswasmyNexis

Original post by Lawyertobee

Just like to point out that you point 1 misquotes Flav. He said it was an easy qualification to do 'elsewhere'- as in it is easy to transfer.

On this note, it is a bloody easy course if taught in an organised way.

Your point about the quality of teaching seems to me to be irrelevant. I read Flav's comment to mean that if the course were to continue it would be underfunded and the quality of teaching would suffer at THAT point.

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Reply 16

maturetrainee

Interesting several posters are more interested in Oxford University's financial position than the facts in this matter.

The LPC at OXILP is nothing to do with the esteemed University of Oxford, it used to be accredited by both Brookes and Oxford. That arrangement ended several years ago.

The comments are quite correct, the finances are probably quite tight at Brookes. Applicants are down and at over £10000 for a year long course, with over a hundred students enrolled, income is a worry... More likely is that the staff wage bill was an easy target!

My big problem is with comments regarding transferring to other providers. I am told that as it stands this simply isn't possible! Stage one of the course must be complete to transfer - SRA rules. PT students will not have completed this before the planned closure. Either SRA must waive its rules or Brookes meet their contractual obligations towards their students. The possibility of either of these outcomes is not clear.

Whatever your personal views, hardworking people have been affected by ill thought out decision making, which will have far reaching consequences for law at Brookes!

That is all...

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Reply 17

Lawyertobee

Received news that the SRA have approved the University of Law to continue providing the LPC at Brookes for students PT and FT 2013/14.

Great news.

FYI: The Postgraduate Diploma awarded to students at OXILP is accredited by both The University of Oxford and Oxford Brookes. Get your facts straight.