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Original post by Midlander
Both sides are guilty and I find it very unsavoury. Then again, for the SNP this has always been about Anglophobia and their rhetoric reflects it.


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What a hateful lot some of you are. I'm sorry but it has to be said. This Better Campaign is suffused with negativity - you'll find that for the most part, SNP's campaign is suffused with positivity.

I'm sick, sick, sick of reading about Scottish "anglophobia". It's simply not true for most of us. Half of my family is English - what I do have a problem with is Westminister making our decisions time and again. By walking into illegal wars that we don't support. Introducing atrocious policies like the bedroom tax. The list goes on. I want an independent Scotland because I want a better future for our country . Let me tell you now - I have been surrounded by SNP supporters all my life and have found that *most* of them are confident with a real "can do" attitude. The Better Together campaign (and most of you folk on here) have a real "Scotland can't do" attitude that you keep hammering towards us. The truth is, you can debate all you like but it has nothing to do with you. Clearly Midlander and Lib, the likes of the bedroom tax and have no impact on you whatsoever. Because you are comfortable enough you are quite free to sit behind your computer tapping away while families live off of food banks thanks to the poverty we've been dragged into, while the rich keep getting richer. You don't know, and probably never will know what it is like to be so far oppressed that things need to change and you have to break free. The truth is that all the questions (that Salmond apparently keeps dodging) will never be definitely, conclusively answered because we need to be open to change, and yes, to some extent taking a leap of faith. I am ready for that leap and a lot of other people are too.

But others aren't quite yet. I hope that the Scottish people take that leap of faith next year - otherwise I would seriously struggle to continue living in this country thereafter.
(edited 10 years ago)
I see it as a terrible decision, if made. Sacrificing a 400 year history for something trivial like tuition fee reduction. Maybe it could lobby the central government for more devolution of power, but becoming a separate international entity seems trivial and over the top - like a toddler throwing its plate of dinner on the floor because it didn't like one of the dishes.
On HE funding, they have addressed the issue of non-Scottish UK nationals studying in Scotland, but not that of Scottish nationals studying elsewhere in the UK.

If Scotland were independent, but didn't join the EU, then universities in Wales, England, Northern Ireland could charge international student fees to Scottish applicants.

This in itself isn't the strongest argument for or against independence, but something 16-17 year-old voters in Scotland may wish to consider..
Original post by Kattt_452
What a hateful lot some of you are. I'm sorry but it has to be said. This Better Campaign is suffused with negativity - you'll find that for the most part, SNP's campaign is suffused with positivity.

Garbage-anyone who questions the SNP's promises is called a scaremongerer who is belittling Scotland. They are actually doing the opposite-Alex Salmond is selling the Scots a false vision and somebody has to scrutinise it so they don't make a dreadful mistake.


I'm sick, sick, sick of reading about Scottish "anglophobia". It's simply not true for most of us. Half of my family is English - what I do have a problem with is Westminister making our decisions time and again.

You're sick of reading about it, I'm sick of experiencing it. Westminster don't run NHS Scotland, they don't dictate the Scottish curriculum and Scotland enjoys more money spent per head on it than other constituents courtesy of the Barnett formula. The Scottish Government enjoys a wealth of autonomy it makes little use of because for now, it doesn't strengthen their agenda to do so.


By walking into illegal wars that we don't support. Introducing atrocious policies like the bedroom tax. The list goes on. I want an independent Scotland because I want a better future for our country . Let me tell you now - I have been surrounded by SNP supporters all my life and have found that *most* of them are confident with a real "can do" attitude.

Just because the current government does things you disagree with that is no reason at all just to up and leave-that's outright fickle. It doesn't matter, for example, that the present Westminster set-up allowed Scottish MPs to approve tuition fee hikes in England.


The Better Together campaign (and most of you folk on here) have a real "Scotland can't do" attitude that you keep hammering towards us. The truth is, you can debate all you like but it has nothing to do with you. Clearly Midlander and Lib, the likes of the bedroom tax and have no impact on you whatsoever. Because you are comfortable enough you are quite free to sit behind your computer tapping away while families live off of food banks thanks to the poverty we've been dragged into, while the rich keep getting richer. You don't know, and probably never will know what it is like to be so far oppressed that things need to change and you have to break free. The truth is that all the questions (that Salmond apparently keeps dodging) will never be definitely, conclusively answered because we need to be open to change, and yes, to some extent taking a leap of faith. I am ready for that leap and a lot of other people are too.

What an absurd thing to level at people you don't know. I spent virtually all of my student life overdrawn because I had no other means of meeting my education costs at a Scottish university. Now I'm in postgrad education and earning the money to pay this off-and contributing to the Scottish economy in the process with the work I do. You talk as though everybody in England is laughing it up with champagne glasses at Scotland's expense-it is total garbage. Your talk of oppression resonates with the jingoistic nonsense spouted by the Yes voters on here.


But others aren't quite yet. I hope that the Scottish people take that leap of faith next year - otherwise I would seriously struggle to continue living in this country thereafter.


If the Scots take that leap of faith as you say, I will be made a foreigner and, in the eyes of the Scottish Government, officially an outsider. All I have heard from Yes campaigners since the referendum debate first began is how my country has controlled Scotland, oppressed it, conspired against it, and screwed it over-just like evil Longshanks all those centuries ago. Yet, at the same time, these people want to maintain a currency union and act like everything's the same.

But it won't be.
Absolutely hilarious line I heard from one Yes supporter on the BBC News Channel today, 'What we want is independence, not separation'.

Just about sums the whole thing up for me, really.
Original post by Kattt_452
What a hateful lot some of you are. I'm sorry but it has to be said. Blah blah blah


It's not negativity. Its reality.

I wouldn't describe the SNPs campaign as positive. Merely fantasy.

Many of is have to live in reality and understand the rather dire economic situation that the SNP are trying to introduce. Its a combination of nationalism and failed socialist policies.

The claim of illegal wars have also involved many of the nations that the SNP claim we should be like.

Holyrood is making decisions on my behalf. I didn't vote for them. But lets not forget that labour is the main Westminster party for Scotland, what's your argument next time labour get in? Shall all of the areas that vote Tory and lib dem throw their toys out of the pram?

I've been around SNP supporters. I tend to find them naive, unrealistic with more than a few with a darker xenophobic streak running through them. That's the general traits of nationalists.


You are right, many have been dragged into poverty, or what we in the first world consider poverty. A situation not helped by the SNP diverting funds away from tacking that poverty to shore up policies that benefit the middle classes. Problems that don't seem to be likely to go away with their aims in the future other than wild arsed claims that they'll do something to deal with it but no explanation of how.

i doubt however you have any clue of what oppression is. I'm not oppressed and I'm sure as hell you're not oppressed. Using emotive language to portray a sense of victim hood is another traits of nationalists throughout the modern world. They need to try and portray themselves as victims to gain support. They thrive on negativeness.

Can I assume that when a no vote is returned you'll be taking your poison to other shores?
Original post by LukeWhiting
Absolutely hilarious line I heard from one Yes supporter on the BBC News Channel today, 'What we want is independence, not separation'.

Just about sums the whole thing up for me, really.


You'll never get any sense from them. Wait until Maths Tutor comes along and you'll see what I mean.

I'm dreading the YeSNP door knocking campaign. It's like a never ending trick or treat night. But its good for a laugh watching them squirm their way as they struggle to answer the most basic of questions.
Reply 4327
Original post by Kattt_452
What a hateful lot some of you are. I'm sorry but it has to be said. This Better Campaign is suffused with negativity - you'll find that for the most part, SNP's campaign is suffused with positivity.

I'm sick, sick, sick of reading about Scottish "anglophobia". It's simply not true for most of us. Half of my family is English - what I do have a problem with is Westminister making our decisions time and again. By walking into illegal wars that we don't support. Introducing atrocious policies like the bedroom tax. The list goes on. I want an independent Scotland because I want a better future for our country . Let me tell you now - I have been surrounded by SNP supporters all my life and have found that *most* of them are confident with a real "can do" attitude. The Better Together campaign (and most of you folk on here) have a real "Scotland can't do" attitude that you keep hammering towards us. The truth is, you can debate all you like but it has nothing to do with you. Clearly Midlander and Lib, the likes of the bedroom tax and have no impact on you whatsoever. Because you are comfortable enough you are quite free to sit behind your computer tapping away while families live off of food banks thanks to the poverty we've been dragged into, while the rich keep getting richer. You don't know, and probably never will know what it is like to be so far oppressed that things need to change and you have to break free. The truth is that all the questions (that Salmond apparently keeps dodging) will never be definitely, conclusively answered because we need to be open to change, and yes, to some extent taking a leap of faith. I am ready for that leap and a lot of other people are too.

But others aren't quite yet. I hope that the Scottish people take that leap of faith next year - otherwise I would seriously struggle to continue living in this country thereafter.


Naturally you are right about the Positive vs Negative campaigns, thats the nature of one being for Yes, one being for No.

Better Together almost by definition recognise Scotland can, the argument is about which is best for Scotland.

Scotland already has the ability to stop the 'bedroom tax'. I have yet to hear how the rich will stop getting richer in an independent Scotland. All I have heard is that corporation tax will be cut.

I think people on here might have a little more respect for the campaign if on some crucial issues the plan wasn't the status quo. Keeping Sterling yet having less influence on it is curious. Having the Queen of England rather than reinstating a monarch of Scotland is odd.

I'm curious why you think this leap of faith will be better than the others in history. Not even looking outside Scottish borders the union was an arrangements Scots once changed for.
Original post by L i b
Absolutely, incredibly and unutterably illegal under any conventional formulation of EU law and completely contrary to the principles of membership. On a more personal level, I think it's discriminatory and offensive.


Come on lib. We'd need to be in the EU for that to be illegal. Everybody outside of Scotland studying up here would be paying.
Original post by MatureStudent36
x


When the advert for that 'Our friends in the north' BBC (sorry, 'EBC') came on, I genuinely thought it was going to be about the Shetlands or Orkneys-given that they are actually north of Scotland rather than due east of it. These people have as much in common with someone from Edinburgh as I do-nothing. Perhaps no surprise to see the Shetlanders talking about an independence of their own if Scotland goes.
Original post by Kattt_452
W


So emotional language is a nationalistic trait now? " I hope that the Scottish people take that leap of faith next year - otherwise I would seriously struggle to continue living in this country thereafter." What happens if you're wrong? and you make it even worst then it already is? Will that be fine because of the leap of faith you took? What matters more? For one thing you will be losing money because of the lost income of the rebate. (Yeah no country in the EU is giving Scotland any extra money)
Original post by MatureStudent36
Come on lib. We'd need to be in the EU for that to be illegal. Everybody outside of Scotland studying up here would be paying.


The paper assumes that EU membership has been given by this point I assume.
Original post by DarkWhite
On HE funding, they have addressed the issue of non-Scottish UK nationals studying in Scotland, but not that of Scottish nationals studying elsewhere in the UK.

If Scotland were independent, but didn't join the EU, then universities in Wales, England, Northern Ireland could charge international student fees to Scottish applicants.

This in itself isn't the strongest argument for or against independence, but something 16-17 year-old voters in Scotland may wish to consider..


That might play into the hands of the SNP. They'd be able to perpetuate the myth that somehow we're ideologically different by discouraging any firm if interaction.
One more thing I'd like to address, as I've seen comments on various sites and news articles claiming that the UK is in an unstable financial situation, and so Scotland should leave the Union.

The brutal reality is that, if the UK were to be in serious trouble financially or economically, Scotland would also be in serious trouble, regardless of the level of political unity. The links between our countries will still be huge, so independence would not address that concern.
Original post by MatureStudent36
That might play into the hands of the SNP. They'd be able to perpetuate the myth that somehow we're ideologically different by discouraging any firm if interaction.


That's great for nationalist political parties, but for the real people growing up wanting to study at university, I'm not sure it's something they'd appreciate.
Original post by Midlander
The paper assumes that EU membership has been given by this point I assume.


That's one of the many assumptions they've made as fact. I think the currency union and automatic sharing if cyber security technology is another one and that the Royal Navy will continue to buy over priced warships from the Clyde to support out shipbuilding industry whilst rUK continues to fund renewables and R&D in our universities.
Original post by DarkWhite
That's great for nationalist political parties, but for the real people growing up wanting to study at university, I'm not sure it's something they'd appreciate.


Never underestimate how narrow minded and parochial you're average Nat is.
Original post by LukeWhiting
One more thing I'd like to address, as I've seen comments on various sites and news articles claiming that the UK is in an unstable financial situation, and so Scotland should leave the Union.

The brutal reality is that, if the UK were to be in serious trouble financially or economically, Scotland would also be in serious trouble, regardless of the level of political unity. The links between our countries will still be huge, so independence would not address that concern.


Scotland is more dependent on the rUK than vice versa.
Original post by MatureStudent36
That might play into the hands of the SNP. They'd be able to perpetuate the myth that somehow we're ideologically different by discouraging any firm if interaction.


Alex Salmond talks a lot about creating a fairer Scotland. That of course means ripping off RUK students in defiance of EU law, having squirmed into the EU with this intention publicly stated beforehand.
The paper released is an absolute joke, Anybody who believes what is in it needs their head examined.

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