Now EU want to ban British number plates

They do ask: all proposals go to the Council of Ministers and the European Parliament and have to be approved by both because the Commission can progress with them. The Parliament is elected by us, and the Council is made up of government ministers, also elected by us, and they get to vote, once the UK Parliament authorises them to, based on population size.

When was the last time your MP asked you about a Bill going through the UK Parliament?

Heavens above, you need to be proactive. With the UK Parliament, you'd write to your MP, to a minister, to a select committee. It's exactly the same with the EU: write to your MEP, to a Parliamentary committee, to the British minister responsible, or to the European Commission.

1) I don't elect david cameron, his party does, and I have no way of influencing his vote.

the council of ministers is clearly meant to be a federal senate with its single seat per member state format, but usually, democratic senates are elected.

2) MEPs have no power to amend or propose - they are a rubber stamp.

legislation in the EU is usually rushed through and there is never any time to debate anything.

MEPs are also extremely ambiguous in their election - we have no idea what they could be asked to vote on.

also MEPs in this country don't consistute a majority of MEPs (hardly so) so whether we all as a country voted MEPs that opposed this, we'd still probably have absolutely no effect on this going through.

3) technically the commission can legislate without either if it really wanted to - if it did that though I'd not feel any worse - it's all pretty undemocratic

yeah, okay, you could also say this about a entire-world government - if they collectively do something you don't like, write to your local global government representative - they'll sort everything out. no problem. don't worry about them forming a tiny minority of the representation and how they as national MEPs for the country aren't going to make up a majority, not to worry - writing to them will definitely make a difference. a political union of over 300 million people and my local representative is going to sort it all out for me

Yes you do: by voting in the other guy, by writing to your MP who will be informed of your concerns and will write to the minister or ask questions in the House, or inform a select committee.

No they're not, but that's beside the point. It's not the upper house of a legislature; it doesn't function like one, and debates procedure within it is not parliamentary but diplomatic. It's as parliamentary as a meeting of the G7.

False. Proposals take literally years. There are still things being debated that were proposed in 2012.

Then ask them. Get informed and quiz them. You have no idea what UK MPs will be quizzed on either!

By that logic, Scotland should withdraw from the UK because it can be outvoted by England.

What do you mean 'technically'? It has no such power. There are certain fields where it only needs the consent of the Council of Ministers (such as on external relations), but at all times the Commission is kept on an extremely tight leash. If you can find an example of the Commission acting by fiat I would be fascinated.

You realise this criticism basically undermines all organised government, right? Are you an anarchist?

no I don't; I didn't vote for a conservative anyway

and even if I did, that is far too remote. if you're saying that I can influence the EU's fundamental dynamics by voting for one MP over another (and I have no power to select one conservative local candidate over another unless I'm a party member which takes time and money) who will vote for one other party MP over other, who will then become a member of the council of ministers then that's like saying "you can vote for a blind man to select a fellow blind man to walk across a busy-traffic road to hopefully not get hit and make it to the other side" - I am, for all intents and purposes, blind over what candidate my MP is going to vote for in the future because the race would never have crystalised in time. and writing to my local MP (a liberal democrat) is going to do *nothing* about which candidate a conservative votes for. and if you're honestly going to tell me that, if I did have a conservative MP, writing to them is going to do anything when they have no meaningful accountability over this one single issue which nobody would care about during an election, then again you're asserting extremely disportionate claims and representing remoteness to be significance.

explain, then? do they not operate over legislation like an upper house? do they not have any affect on the operation of the EU parliament?

well technically they can't amend with an independence because they need to ask the commission first, which was what I was trying to imply

not really

1) ask them about something I don't even know about yet?! how can I possibly predict that the EU is going to be legislating over number plates as part of the EU's main decision making area? how long is an MEP's manifesto, exactly? I just read the conservative EU mainifesto from 2009 - most of the provisions are things like "we won't join the euro", "we will fight to bring down global poverty" - really, how am I meant to know what they're going to do? this no doubt goes for all the other parties

2) I have a somewhat comfortable idea of what MPs are voting on - they have somewhat clear manifestos that cover certain areas of policy but for MEPs - the problem with MPs over MEPs is that they lie, not that they don't even tell you what they're going to vote on

I'm sorry but you're treating this issue extremely disingenuously - you're essentially saying that to have any concept of democracy is to devolve it to the smallest number of people - but that standard democracy doesn't work because by doing this you could devolve it down to individuals, who constitute a majority of their person-hood/self determination. I am at least trying to argue the concept of democracy with proportionality, necessity and reasonableness - the UK is and has been a nation state in a comfortable, consistent, certain and stable manner without serious disagreements or lack of democratic faith for many years in this form (especially seeing as scotland probably aren't going to leave, and as well, at leas they have their own parliament which grants them de facto sovereignty over domestic issues to a large extent - but either way if they democratically vote to leave then that's fine, it's their right to do so) while in this country, we don't look at ourselves as a member of "the country of europe" we look at ourselves as member of a country of the UK, as british citizens, and as far as the EU goes, I doubt I will be able to get a correct answer from strangers on the street if I asked "who is the current speaker of the EU parliament?" or "who is the president of the EU commission?" - nobody knows anything about the EU and who runs it - it's completely beyond most people because it's so opaque with all its bureaucracy, irrelevance and lack of elections. again, we could have a global government where people like you will tell me if I don't like the unelected leader I could vote for another party in order to get them out of power - it's a laughable excuse for a plan and it just serves the point I'm making that we are essentially powerless and without a majority in the EU. we have a majority here as a country of citizens, but as one country as part of a continent of countries that don't see themselves in union with one another (or we deny it out of disbelief), we only see each other as countries, not citizens - europe isn't a country, it never was, there is too much difference between peoples, and this is why democracy in the EU is so difficult

no, it can legislate by itself without any say from either body in certain cases - that's what I was saying, I wasn't talking about the council of ministers. and in terms of EU directives (de facto orders of the commission):

no, democracy is relative seeing as it's relative to certain understandings and social factors that are the mantle of a political system such as the ideas of citizenship, collectivity, ideas of authority's legitimacy, etc - if you're objective, you can either have a world government or you can have no democracy at all, and neither are good in any light, so you must balance it with ideas of nation hood and legitimate authority - the UK is a nation and the citizens of it consider themselves part of that nation, whereas we aren't "citizens of the EU" in that same way - if we do, it's out of technicality. in my opinion, you could devolve the UK down or federalise it without any problems, it's the idea that you're suggesting that isn't considering the fact that smaller yet recognised jurisdictions are the most satisfying for people because they are in satisfying contact with their representatives, but if you have tiny towns that have full democratic control over their own affairs, this undermines the idea of nationhood completely if each town can effectively be legally its own country when nobody sees it like this and thus it won't be a legitimised or recognised political body, just like the EU but in reverse. if you have a huge mass of the globe as its own government where there are probably about 10+ languages involved, everyone will be dissociated with it politically because nobody will feel connected with any of the citizens other than the ones from their own country. that's simply how it works. and really, if you like democracy yet you like the EU I don't understand how you can rationalise the dual-workings of both without using that principle I had used against you - proportionality.

God almighty, what a non-issue. As if our national identity is tied up in bleeding number plates.

Those that claim this is a non-issue, why if so are the EU hell-bent on abolishing national symbols

Where does it stop though? Will it get rid of the British passport soon and issue a European one?

EU passports are already standardised.

I'd imagine most of you pro-europeans on here are for Britain joining the euro

I'd imagine most of you pro-europeans on here are for Britain joining the euro

Where does it stop though? Will it get rid of the British passport soon and issue a European one?

Dez, where does it stop though? We signed up to a Common Market, not a political union…. The European Union is now a cancerous tumour growing on Britain and inhibiting it from reaching its potential strength.