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Original post by MostUncivilised
You're welcome to try. You won't find anything because it has never been Israeli state policy to murder the entire Palestinian group. And quotes from right-wing nutcases demonstrate nothing, what you need to show are state documents, cabinet decisions, something similar to the Wannsee Conference

To be honest, it's pretty obscene to call this genocide because it suggests you have such tunnel vision on this issue that you've never bothered to study actual genocides (you know, like in Cambodia, Rwanda, the Armenian Genocide, the Holocaust). Interestingly, all of those involved masses of deaths, not a ludicrously small by comparison 1900


Well you can take a look at this for starters:

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2014/07/16/371556/israel-must-kill-all-palestinian-mothers/

What is happening in the Middle East is not a text book affair. You cannot simply read a party's constitution and not lift your head up and view the actual acts of the Parliament.

If there was no desire for targeted killing, then UN schools, homes, hospitals and children would not have died.
Original post by MostUncivilised
Actually, no. Almost 2/3rds of the Jews in Israel are Mizrahi Jews (i.e. from the Middle East, Iraq, Yemen,etc).

The fact you didn't know that, the fact you believed the vast majority of Jews in Israel were European, demonstrates you are so xenophobic and so biased against Israel that you would make up any fact, or accept any lie, without bothering to see if it's true.

You should be ****ing ashamed of yourself


You should be, for your woeful lack of erudition on linguistics and ethnography. Mizrahi jews never identified as such till around the nationalising factor of "Israel" they were coined as Sephardi, and most were Syriac. Armenian, Greek - till later liberty from the Turkic and Mongol states holding Persia. Even then, it doesn't pursue your argument, as you're conflating ethno-religious groups (something not identified with any tangible evidence genetically) as ethnicity.

And the figure for Mizrahi Jews (of which it is tenable Sephardi or Mizrahi affiliation) is around 2.8 million last I checked, apropos to the relation of European jews in Israel, yes most are European.
Original post by MostUncivilised
They could have fooled us, given the haunting silence from many Muslims on those subjects, and the proportionally far greater attention and criticism of Israel despite the fact that Syria is far worse.

Syria has x100 more casualties, but Israel gets x100 more attention from the Muslim world. That suggests deep hypocrisy


In fact to claim the Levantine-arabized populace aren't endemic is just ridiculous, because it posits utter misconception on the nature of diaspora and how subjugated peoples linguistically, ergo "culturally" transform. Many of the Arabized levantine population now, were and are originally descending from the large Greek, Hebrew, Samaritan populaces. So by which definition are they not endemic? And modern Jews are?
Original post by MostUncivilised
They could have fooled us, given the haunting silence from many Muslims on those subjects, and the proportionally far greater attention and criticism of Israel despite the fact that Syria is far worse.

Syria has x100 more casualties, but Israel gets x100 more attention from the Muslim world. That suggests deep hypocrisy


'They' fooled you because that's exactly what you wanted to see and what certain news broadcasters failed to portray.

Attention may seem to be on Israel now, only because of the blatant lies and escalation of violence. If you actually spoke to Muslims and saw the work that they did in Syria to help those displaced from their homes and starving, with no education, you would realise that you're completely unaware.

There are people who will never be pleased with whatever the Muslims say or do and will always have something to winge about. I hope you're not one of them :smile:
Original post by AntisthenesDogger
You should be, for your woeful lack of erudition on linguistics and ethnography. Mizrahi jews never identified as such till around the nationalising factor of "Israel" they were coined as Sephardi, and most were Syriac. Armenian, Greek - till later liberty from the Turkic and Mongol states holding Persia. Even then, it doesn't pursue your argument, as you're conflating ethno-religious groups (something not identified with any tangible evidence genetically) as ethnicity.

And the figure for Mizrahi Jews (of which it is tenable Sephardi or Mizrahi affiliation) is around 2.8 million last I checked, apropos to the relation of European jews in Israel, yes most are European.


So five minutes ago it was "Every single Jew In Israel (bar an incredibly small minority)" was European. Now its almost 3 millon. You admit you were lying through your teeth

By the way Mizrahi doesn't mean sephardic (though they are sephardic). Now you're just scrambling to cover up your lack of knowledge (or outright lies)
Original post by MostUncivilised
So five minutes ago it was "Every single Jew In Israel (bar an incredibly small minority)" was European. Now its almost 3 millon. You admit you were lying through your teeth

By the way Mizrahi doesn't mean sephardic (though they are sephardic). Now you're just scrambling to cover up your lack of knowledge (or outright lies)


It was an obvious exaggeration. Meant to highlight the point of non-levantine descent. If you want to nitpick over that and not identify the content of which is; Jews are not descendant from the Israel, then sure. Do so.

I never said it meant sephardic, don't straw man. I said they identified, as sephardi - Mizrahi is a relatively new invention, for the usage of of etonymy. I'm not scrambling anything... You're the one whom has rebuked nothing I've said. You continue to conflate ethno-religious groups as ethnic; you can't identify the historical makeup of Israel and your only contention is my exaggeration of the first point, for the sake of being ordaining of truth. You want to jump on that I exaggerated that? Sure, I admit I did. But everything else is true.

And 2.8 million aprops to around 8 million Jews, is yes a small amount. Even if you want to be anachronistic and claim that Jews of whom didn't descend from Israel, but Roman Syria, the Caucasus are somehow endemic to it...
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by AntisthenesDogger
It was an obvious exaggeration. Meant to highlight the point of non-levantine descent.


It wasn't an "obvious exaggeration", it was a complete distortion. You said that "Every Jew", with a tiny qualification, was European. This is clearly not true. As recently as the 1970s, Mizrahi Jews were about 70% of the population, and anyone who has actually beem there will know this intuitively because so many Israelis look like Arabs or Middle Eastern.

Mizrahi is a relatively new invention


So? It's a very handy categorisation insteadg of saying "Baghdadi Jew, Yemeni Jew, Syriac Jew etc etc". And its newness does nothing for your argument given they remain resolutely non-European, despite your attempt to deny their very existence

I'm not scrambling anything... You're the one whom has rebuked nothing I've said


On the contrary, I've completely blown it out of the water. In an attempt to deny legitimacy to Israel, you claimed that almost all Israeli Jews are Europeans, in a grubby attempt to convey a colonial image. That was totally wrong, and you should offer a sincere apology to Mizrahi Jews. All your other arguments about what kind of grouping they are is irrelevant; it's not going to make them European. By the way, in 2006 it was estimated 61% of Israeli Jews are of Mizrahi descent

And 2.8 million aprops to around 8 million Jews, is yes a small amount

Wow. Yet another lie. 8 million is the population of Israel, not the number of Jews in Israel. There are 1.6 millon Arab Muslims in Israel
Original post by MostUncivilised
It wasn't an "obvious exaggeration", it was a complete distortion. You said that "Every Jew", with a tiny qualification, was European. This is clearly not true. As recently as the 1970s, Mizrahi Jews were about 70% of the population, and anyone who has actually beem there will know this intuitively because so many Israelis look like Arabs or Middle Eastern.



So? It's a very handy categorisation insteadg of saying "Baghdadi Jew, Yemeni Jew, Syriac Jew etc etc". And its newness does nothing for your argument given they remain resolutely non-European, despite your attempt to deny their very existence



On the contrary, I've completely blown it out of the water. In an attempt to deny legitimacy to Israel, you claimed that almost all Israeli Jews are Europeans, in a grubby attempt to convey a colonial image. That was totally wrong, and you should offer a sincere apology to Mizrahi Jews. All your other arguments about what kind of grouping they are is irrelevant; it's not going to make them European. By the way, in 2006 it was estimated 61% of Israeli Jews are of Mizrahi descent



Wow. Yet another lie. 8 million is the population of Israel, not the number of Jews in Israel. There are 1.6 millon Arab Muslims in Israel



Exaggeration, distortion, same synonym in this context. The rest of your point is utter fatuous. Around 2.7 million Mizrahi (and most identify as Sephardi, culturally) of 8+ million Israeli's That's not 75%. The rest of your point is just laughable in terms of genotype and phenotype.

It does everything for my argument. You're stuck on the fact I said most are European. The premise is that they're not Israeli. Still true.

The exaggeration means nothing, most are European. The rest aren't endemic to Israel. They're not ethnically Jews either. You're the only one here held up on the mention of "European Jews" unless you can't decipher semantics. This is a debate about Jews being endemic to Israel, not whether they're European; the fact a majority are, is simply fact.
Original post by striver17
.

Attention may seem to be on Israel now, only because of the blatant lies and escalation of violence. If you actually spoke to Muslims and saw the work that they did in Syria to help those displaced from their homes and starving, with no education, you would realise that you're completely unaware.

equally you could open your eyes to the fact that some muslims are killing people by the truckload, ie in syria and iraq as we speak, and making millions homeless - many many times more signifcant in numbers, impact etc than anything any israeli operation has done.
but muslims do not want to talk about this, or even bring up this comparison - so tell us again , who is being 'unaware'?
Original post by Meenglishnogood
equally you could open your eyes to the fact that some muslims are killing people by the truckload, ie in syria and iraq as we speak, and making millions homeless - many many times more signifcant in numbers, impact etc than anything any israeli operation has done.
but muslims do not want to talk about this, or even bring up this comparison - so tell us again , who is being 'unaware'?


I have already stated that the majority of Muslims are against this and welcome your questions. If you research well you will find that prominent Islamic scholars have spoken against ISIS (if you would like a link, I am happy to send that to you). However, in terms of the number of people killed and the duration of persecution, it undeniable that the situation in Palestine is worse.

Furthermore, I find it unusual that the vigour in which the UK and America is criticised for the wars they are involved in and the lives they destroy under the false pretences of democracy, pale in comparison to what Muslims face for doing something that the majority of Muslims disagree with.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by striver17
I have already stated that the majority of Muslims are against this and welcome your questions. If you research well you will find that prominent Islamic scholars have spoken against ISIS (if you would like a link, I am happy to send that to you). However, in terms of the number of people killed and the duration of persecution, it undeniable that the situation in Palestine is worse.

some 'Islamic scholars' speak against Islamic State, others actively promote them- there is no consensus on this accross the muslim world as there is on palestine. in addition no islamic country ( apart form iran) is making a particualr issue of ISISs murdering in iraq, whereas all have an opinion on israel. indeed muslims in the uk are not organising mass rallies on behalf of the 7000 odd murder victims in iraq, instead trying to turn focus on the 1000 or so in palestine in the same period. anyone with any common sense can see that is a rather perverse agenda
Original post by Meenglishnogood
some 'Islamic scholars' speak against Islamic State, others actively promote them- there is no consensus on this accross the muslim world as there is on palestine. in addition no islamic country ( apart form iran) is making a particualr issue of ISISs murdering in iraq, whereas all have an opinion on israel. indeed muslims in the uk are not organising mass rallies on behalf of the 7000 odd murder victims in iraq, instead trying to turn focus on the 1000 or so in palestine in the same period. anyone with any common sense can see that is a rather perverse agenda


With everything, being it good or bad, is there not a divided opinion? Since when has the world been united under a general consensus? The same applies with those in positions of respect and authority. This is the nature of society and no good can come of people assuming that all Muslims hold the same opinions with respect to ISIS.

Although SOME Islamic countries have an opinion on Israel, certain countries are simply not doing anything about the crisis there.

The situation in Palestine has been dire since 1948, whereas the situation in Iraq is relatively recent. Furthermore, the reason for protesting for Palestine is greatly due to the lack of accurate media coverage and support. The media has been clear and shown the killing of the people in Iraq, hence, priorities in that sense have been elsewhere.

NB: this is a thread about Israel/Palestine, NOT about ISIS.
Original post by striver17
With everything, being it good or bad, is there not a divided opinion? Since when has the world been united under a general consensus? The same applies with those in positions of respect and authority. This is the nature of society and no good can come of people assuming that all Muslims hold the same opinions with respect to ISIS.

Although SOME Islamic countries have an opinion on Israel, certain countries are simply not doing anything about the crisis there.

The situation in Palestine has been dire since 1948, whereas the situation in Iraq is relatively recent. Furthermore, the reason for protesting for Palestine is greatly due to the lack of accurate media coverage and support. The media has been clear and shown the killing of the people in Iraq, hence, priorities in that sense have been elsewhere.

NB: this is a thread about Israel/Palestine, NOT about ISIS.


im perfectly aware of the thread im pointing out the perverse hypocricy of the supporters of islamists and hamas in palestine and the arguments they make which cannot stand if they ignore ISIS murdering in iraq. on the simple basis of saving lives and humanitarian need- all attention should be diverted away from palestine and to iraq right now - but agan as i have said many times, most palestinian supporters have no care for saving lives- they are simply trying to fuel political agendas in the Levant region ( jsut as ISIS are doing , in iraq and syria in fact)

and no, all islamic states state their opinion about israel without hesitation and some of them barrack the UN for action in palestine. whereas non of them do the same for action against ISIS - again showing up their political agendas. iSIS is getting major coverage, they have been even in their early stages in syria alongside other islamist rebel groups, since the start of this year, long before this current palestine conflict
Original post by MostUncivilised
I love when I see comparisons of the Israel/Palestine conflict to the native Americans or Australia.

The people making the comparison don't appear to realise that in this analogy, it is the Israeli Jews who are the native Americans / aborigines, the original inhabitants of the land,


Firstly, I should note two minor points:
- 'Native American' and 'Aborigine' are both far broader terms than 'Jewish'. Just like everywhere, there were significant migrations and population movements in the Americas and Australia.
- The Jews are certainly not the original (i.e. first) inhabitants of the land. There were people who lived in what is now Israel before the Jews got there. Even the Old Testament says this.

But most importantly, unlike the Jews in what is now Israel, the Native Americans were not gone from the Americas for a longer period of time than they were ever there in the first place.

the people with the strongest and oldest connection to that area of the world,


The land is sacred to Muslims and Christians too. The fact that, unlike Jews, Muslims and Christians both have other sacred lands does not make Israel/Palestine less sacred to them.

As for oldest, see above.

whereas the Muslim conquest of Palestine only occurred in the 7th century (unsure what the justification was, other than a thirst for other people's land)


As I said, the land is sacred to Muslims too. And of course, Islam, just like Judaism, is an Abrahamic religion - Muslims believe it to be their 'promised land' for the same reason as Jews do - they believe God promised it to Abraham as part of the Covenant.

Perhaps more importantly, land being sacred is essentially a subjective opinion. People choose to regard land as sacred.

Btw, the 'other people' the Muslims conquered Palestine from in the 7th Century were the Christian Byzantine Empire. There hadn't been an independent Jewish state since about 500 BCE.
Original post by Meenglishnogood
im perfectly aware of the thread im pointing out the perverse hypocricy of the supporters of islamists and hamas in palestine and the arguments they make which cannot stand if they ignore ISIS murdering in iraq. on the simple basis of saving lives and humanitarian need- all attention should be diverted away from palestine and to iraq right now - but agan as i have said many times, most palestinian supporters have no care for saving lives- they are simply trying to fuel political agendas in the Levant region ( jsut as ISIS are doing , in iraq and syria in fact)

and no, all islamic states state their opinion about israel without hesitation and some of them barrack the UN for action in palestine. whereas non of them do the same for action against ISIS - again showing up their political agendas. iSIS is getting major coverage, they have been even in their early stages in syria alongside other islamist rebel groups, since the start of this year, long before this current palestine conflict


I see that there is no point discussing this with you as you are generalising the 'supporters of islamists and hamas' as ignoring ISIS and clearly don't want to read up on the actual acts of the Muslim community with regards to this issue. You fail to portray the view of the majority of the Muslims and are latching onto what is a minority opinion, and even if someone was to agree with you, you would find reason to argue.

I sincerely hope that one day people will actually judge Islam based on ISLAM and not on the acts of certain people/countries, as I know that this is an issue globally.
Original post by anarchism101
Firstly, I should note two minor points:
- 'Native American' and 'Aborigine' are both far broader terms than 'Jewish'. Just like everywhere, there were significant migrations and population movements in the Americas and Australia.
- The Jews are certainly not the original (i.e. first) inhabitants of the land. There were people who lived in what is now Israel before the Jews got there. Even the Old Testament says this.

But most importantly, unlike the Jews in what is now Israel, the Native Americans were not gone from the Americas for a longer period of time than they were ever there in the first place .


equally the 'Native American' and 'Aborigine' where not 'native endemic to those lands either , they also travelled to the lands too - that has never been the point - we recognise that as being their homeland as we do jerusalem was the jews - their faith says that but more importantly, history says that too. yes they may have been other peoples orginally there, but many of those have been wiped out ( islamic conquest anyone?) And you forget israelis dont say they want to kick out all the muslims and christians from their homeland - they are happy to home them too. they jsut want a jewish state to live in in their homeland.


there have always been jews in palestine and levant as far as history tells us- long before a state of palestine was created and indeed long beofre mohammed came up with islam. the muslims could not wipe them all out, in the same way the europeans could not wipe out all the native americans.

Original post by anarchism101

The land is sacred to Muslims and Christians too. The fact that, unlike Jews, Muslims and Christians both have other sacred lands does not make Israel/Palestine less sacred to them.


As I said, the land is sacred to Muslims too. And of course, Islam, just like Judaism, is an Abrahamic religion - Muslims believe it to be their 'promised land' for the same reason as Jews do - they believe God promised it to Abraham as part of the Covenant. .
that being the case, muslims should also recognise Abraham was sent to jerusalem to claim it as the homeland of his people ( the jews) . you forget the only interest arabs had with jerusalem was when the first muslim caliphates army tried to conquer it -

Original post by anarchism101

Btw, the 'other people' the Muslims conquered Palestine from in the 7th Century were the Christian Byzantine Empire. There hadn't been an independent Jewish state since about 500 BCE.

that arguemnt holds no water - the ottomans conquered the arabs, and then british conquered the muslims , before which there had never been any independant palestinian state in last 2500 years . you could argue then by your reasoning int he free-for-all since the israelis conquered the arabs and therefore they have the right as the ones in possestion
Original post by striver17
I see that there is no point discussing this with you as you are generalising the 'supporters of islamists and hamas' as ignoring ISIS and clearly don't want to read up on the actual acts of the Muslim community with regards to this issue. You fail to portray the view of the majority of the Muslims and are latching onto what is a minority opinion, and even if someone was to agree with you, you would find reason to argue.


if i "fail to portray the view of the majority of the Muslims" and you do, tell me then, why is it that there have been scores of anti israel, pro palestine protests accross the uk in the last month, and not one major protest against ISIS? answer that question truthfully and i will accede to your view.


I sincerely hope that one day people will actually judge Islam based on ISLAM and not on the acts of certain people/countries, as I know that this is an issue globally.


you are right to say it is an issue globally - conflicts and terrorist acts like palestine and indeed iraq are going on simulataneous all over the place, at the behest of same sort of islamist groups from chechnya, kashmir, uhighur china, thailand, burma, phillipines, europe, usa, canada. nigeria, kenya, CAR, sudan, somalia, pakistan, afganistan etc etc etc-this list would literally be endless - summarised only by referring to every country that holds a significant muslim population

over 1300 years of islamic history what we are seeing in 2014 has been echoed for over a millenia. perhaps one day you will realise that muslims have always acted in this way - and it is because of the influence of islam upon them, not in spite of it
Original post by Meenglishnogood
you are right to say it is an issue globally - conflicts and terrorist acts like palestine and indeed iraq are going on simulataneous all over the place, at the behest of same sort of islamist groups from chechnya, kashmir, uhighur china, thailand, burma, phillipines, europe, usa, canada. nigeria, kenya, CAR, sudan, somalia, pakistan, afganistan etc etc etc-this list would literally be endless - summarised only by referring to every country that holds a significant muslim population

over 1300 years of islamic history what we are seeing in 2014 has been echoed for over a millenia. perhaps one day you will realise that muslims have always acted in this way - and it is because of the influence of islam upon them, not in spite of it


I could give you a list of countries where Muslims are persecuted for their beliefs, however, I think this is deviating from the top.

What you know about Islam and the people is from the media, pick up the Qur'an and then make a judgement. In the meantime, if you have any questions about certain beliefs and practices in Islam, please free to PM me as this thread should remain focused on the topic. I would be happy to answer you queries as I am a Muslim myself, as you would have probably guessed, and can give you an insight into the views of a majority.
Original post by striver17
I could give you a list of countries where Muslims are persecuted for their beliefs, however, I think this is deviating from the top.

What you know about Islam and the people is from the media, pick up the Qur'an and then make a judgement. In the meantime, if you have any questions about certain beliefs and practices in Islam, please free to PM me as this thread should remain focused on the topic. I would be happy to answer you queries as I am a Muslim myself, as you would have probably guessed, and can give you an insight into the views of a majority.


no, you could give the insight of your opinion only - which is perfectly fine. the public outcry and international response gives the insight that the muslim world is obsessed with seizing palestine on behalf of 'islam' and doesnt really care that 7000 muslims have jsut been killed in iraq ( if theyre are being killed by islamists not jews then it doesnt really fit into their agendas)

and thanks but i dont really need you to recite the quran to me, i have read it, and also many hadiths- both of which im sure you are aware , make reference to mohammeds wars with various jewish tribes in arabia. so again reading islamic sources actually shows precedent for most modern day conflicts. the histroical record fo the early caliphs chronicle their invasion of various middle eastern lands in their attmepts to spread islam ( and oppress other religions) again exactly what ISIS are mirroring in 2014. and the calpihs eventual besieging and capture of jerusalem to establish it as an islamic domain - and that particulalr obsession has not dimmed in the last 1000 years, so much so that young muslims would rather rabidly chant about palestine than dire conflicts that are actually are far more worthy of your attention, ie as in iraq, darfur, CAR etc
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Meenglishnogood
no, you could give the insight of your opinion only - which is perfectly fine. the public outcry and international response gives the insight that the muslim world is obsessed with seizing palestine on behalf of 'islam' and doesnt really care that 7000 muslims have jsut been killed in iraq ( if theyre are being killed by islamists not jews then it doesnt really fit into their agendas)

and thanks but i dont really need you to recite the quran to me, i have read it, and also many hadiths- both of which im sure you are aware , make reference to mohammeds wars with various jewish tribes in arabia. so again reading islamic sources actually shows precedent for most modern day conflicts. the histroical record fo the early caliphs chronicle their invasion of various middle eastern lands in their attmepts to spread islam ( and oppress other religions) again exactly what ISIS are mirroring in 2014. and the calpihs eventual besieging and capture of jerusalem to establish it as an islamic domain - and that particulalr obsession has not dimmed in the last 1000 years, so much so that young muslims would rather rabidly chant about palestine than dire conflicts that are actually are far more worthy of your attention, ie as in iraq, darfur, CAR etc


I'm sorry that you don't see Islam and Muslims for what we really stand for and promote. I don't think this conversation needs to go further because what the Qur'an and the Sunnah states is greater than the actions of few, and far greater than certain peoples ignorance.

I wish you all the best but i would prefer to end this discussion before it escalates and becomes more infuriating and argumentative. :smile:

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