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Increased minimum wage, but not for you lot!

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Original post by ChaoticButterfly
Are you a Luddite?

That is an excellent reason to increase the min wage.


No, I'm all for replacing human workers with machines (apart from self-service checkouts which are a clear and evident waste of everyone's time and patience).

My point was that Joe-average socialist doesn't want to lose his job to a machine.
Original post by Jammy Duel
But the work children are doing is likely to objectively be worth significantly less.
Really? You think a fat middle aged warehouse operator moving heavy stuff around is going to be as efficient as a young fit 21 yr old?You are advocating a form of state planning as well which is strange coming from you.

Original post by Jebedee
No, I'm all for replacing human workers with machines (apart from self-service checkouts which are a clear and evident waste of everyone's time and patience).My point was that Joe-average socialist doesn't want to lose his job to a machine.
Well don't tell them :shh:
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
Really? You think a fat middle aged warehouse operator moving heavy stuff around is going to be as efficient as a young fit 21 yr old?You are advocating a form of state planning as well which is strange coming from you.

Well don't tell them :shh:


When were 21 year olds children?
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
Really? You think a fat middle aged warehouse operator moving heavy stuff around is going to be as efficient as a young fit 21 yr old?You are advocating a form of state planning as well which is strange coming from you.

Well don't tell them :shh:


Speaking from experience?
Original post by Jebedee
And when corporations down-size to offset this new cost increase, how does that help poor people again?


When companies do this as its when not if they will simply be taxed more and we will move to citizens income.

What did you think we would do live in Dickensian Britain again? Lol


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On the question of why not for the younger people it's a mix of keeping costs low and encouraging employers to employ the under 25's


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Original post by Blondie987
The place I work at offers it to everyone :biggrin:


Mine too.
Original post by paul514
When companies do this as its when not if they will simply be taxed more and we will move to citizens income.

What did you think we would do live in Dickensian Britain again? Lol


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If reducing staff numbers to reduce increased costs due to being made to pay them more is Dickensian to you, yes, we never left.
Original post by Jammy Duel
But the work children are doing is likely to objectively be worth significantly less.


If this is case the child shouldn't be employed, the employer should employ people suitable for the job and then pay them the same, if some people are producing better work they should be promoted.

I am also not convinced on this argument that younger people produce work that is worth less, at least not in low skill minimum wage jobs.I think you are being ageist.

Its also worth considering the fact that young people are more intelligent than many stupid adults.Studies have shown that 16% and 50% of adults have English and Maths skills respectively of an 11 year old or worse, looking at GCSE results this is clearly a lot higher than young people.

Younger people are also likely to much fitter than older people which will mean they will do physical task much quicker than older people and minimum wage jobs involve more physical work compared to higher paid jobs.
(edited 8 years ago)
So one more tier on the minimum wage age pyramid?
it's just going to make employers hire younger people so they can get away with paying them less. It's going to be very harmful for the over 25s who are unemployed or havent got much experience and therefore must look for a low paid job.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by paul514
On the question of why not for the younger people it's a mix of keeping costs low and encouraging employers to employ the under 25's


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That is a very poor argument there are a lot less women in full time work yet noone would suggest giving them a lower minimum wage to increase the employment of women?The same could apply for many groups struggling to find work disabled people?

They are trying to justify ageism utterly ridiculous in today's society racism and sexism are not accepted, any such discrimination must be well hidden to avoid massive backlash but ageism is accepted as being correct against young people.
Original post by Dalek1099
That is a very poor argument there are a lot less women in full time work yet noone would suggest giving them a lower minimum wage to increase the employment of women?The same could apply for many groups struggling to find work disabled people?

They are trying to justify ageism utterly ridiculous in today's society racism and sexism are not accepted, any such discrimination must be well hidden to avoid massive backlash but ageism is accepted as being correct against young people.


So young people choose not to work, or want to work shorter hours, because society and biology has them at home raising children?
Original post by Jammy Duel
If reducing staff numbers to reduce increased costs due to being made to pay them more is Dickensian to you, yes, we never left.


What?


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Reply 54
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Josb
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Original post by Laomedeia
To make people on low wages less poor.

If more people have more money, then more people will be spending. More spending means more products and services being sold. To keep up with increased demand, more people (in the form of paid employees) are required to produce said goods and services. Makes sense to me.


It doesn't work when almost every product is manufactured abroad. Rising the minimum wage is like giving exportation subsidies to China.
Original post by paul514


Increases in minimum wage increase unemployment compared to no increase because the wage bill goes up.

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Original post by Jammy Duel
Increases in minimum wage increase unemployment compared to no increase because the wage bill goes up.

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The evidence for which doesn't exist.

When the original minimum wage was brought in there was no evidence that it effected employment.

Further to this there is an official report saying in 2020 there will be 50000 less jobs then there would have been if no changes were made.

So even if that proves to be correct we will on projections create 1,450,000 jobs instead of 1,500,000 jobs a price well worth paying both for welfare reasons and reasons for the individual also


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Original post by Jammy Duel
When were 21 year olds children?


I'd say the same about a 16 yr old to be honest.

A 21 yr old can be paid a lower min wage than a 25 yr old.
Reply 58
Avatar for Laomedeia
Laomedeia
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21
Original post by Josb
It doesn't work when almost every product is manufactured abroad. Rising the minimum wage is like giving exportation subsidies to China.


Being on minimum wage is demoralizing. I have left a min wage job in the past just to go back on the dole. I ended up getting so frustrated working my ass off for so little reward I couldnt take it any more.
I could accept a low wage as a temporary thing such as while being trained up, or as a probationary period. It is not a wage I would accept in the long term.
Work should pay, as that is the whole point of a job. Or else they could simply put down the minimum wage to 40 pence per week and create a booming economy if the "minimum wage increase costs jobs" thing is to go by. Personally I couldnt give a dam about the economy if it meant I was a slave. Im probably not the only one that feels this way.
Reply 59
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Josb
6
Original post by Laomedeia
Being on minimum wage is demoralizing. I have left a min wage job in the past just to go back on the dole. I ended up getting so frustrated working my ass off for so little reward I couldnt take it any more.
I could accept a low wage as a temporary thing such as while being trained up, or as a probationary period. It is not a wage I would accept in the long term.
Work should pay, as that is the whole point of a job. Or else they could simply put down the minimum wage to 40 pence per week and create a booming economy if the "minimum wage increase costs jobs" thing is to go by. Personally I couldnt give a dam about the economy if it meant I was a slave. Im probably not the only one that feels this way.

I agree, but I only contested the statement that increasing the minimum wage was going to create jobs because workers would consume more.

The way to tackle the working poor problem would be to implement a negative income tax as designed by Milton Friedman.

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