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Is there any point in having a referendum?

As seen with the Scottish referendum, it is highly likely that if the UK votes to stay in the EU, the entire issue will refuse to go away and the Leave campaign(s) will vow to keep fighting.

So is there any real point to this referendum at all?

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No.


It's not often I agree with Maggie Thatcher but she was right about referendums.

It's a stupid costly vanity project that lets the government escape its responsibility and doesn't resolve anything.

If you want OUT vote UKIP and be done with it.
I have always said that referendums are a bloody stupid way of deciding policy. I can't help relishing the irony of a referendum about our 'sovereignty' that surrenders parliamentary sovereignty to the whim of the public.
Original post by gladders
I have always said that referendums are a bloody stupid way of deciding policy. I can't help relishing the irony of a referendum about our 'sovereignty' that surrenders parliamentary sovereignty to the whim of the public.


Sovereignty is an abstraction but wouldn't they say the People are sovereign ? (Muh General will)
Original post by Davij038
Sovereignty is an abstraction but wouldn't they say the People are sovereign ? (Muh General will)


Some would, sure but constitutionally, it's nonsense, as Parliament is sovereign.
Original post by BasicMistake
As seen with the Scottish referendum, it is highly likely that if the UK votes to stay in the EU, the entire issue will refuse to go away and the Leave campaign(s) will vow to keep fighting.

So is there any real point to this referendum at all?


Yes

The result is only half the story.
1. People hear healthy debate on the issue, increases "KNOWLEDGE"-Tai Lopez
2. Increases turnout to ge's-Scotland
3.It gives power to the people in a much more representative manner than in the GE
It's ludicrous. What's the point in electing politicians if the public's going to throw a tantrum and demand a referendum for every issue that they're completely uninformed about?

It just shouldn't be happening. Most people don't have the knowledge to make an informed decision on such a complex issue, that's why we don't live in a direct democracy. But for some reason everyone thinks they need to have an opinion on everything, regardless of how little they actually know about it, and then we have to have a referendum to appease them.

And then if they lose the referendum, we have to have another ****ing referendum.
Original post by balanced

1. People hear healthy debate on the issue, increases "KNOWLEDGE"-Tai Lopez


As much as I would like to agree, I feel that any useful information gets lost in the screaming by both sides.

Someone pipes up with a warning about the risks of leaving the EU? PROJECT FEAR!

A senior Tory politician decides to back Leave? CAREERIST PR*CK!

It gets to the point where it is difficult to evaluate reasons for either sides of the argument. Statistics are scoffed at and opinions don't matter if they don't fit your own.
yes it will. it will settle it for a while at least - democracy is a legitimate process of decision making on these matters.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by JordanL_
It's ludicrous. What's the point in electing politicians if the public's going to throw a tantrum and demand a referendum for every issue that they're completely uninformed about?

It just shouldn't be happening. Most people don't have the knowledge to make an informed decision on such a complex issue, that's why we don't live in a direct democracy. But for some reason everyone thinks they need to have an opinion on everything, regardless of how little they actually know about it, and then we have to have a referendum to appease them.

And then if they lose the referendum, we have to have another ****ing referendum.


This comes across as very bitter. How are you so sure that 'most people' don't have the knowledge to make an informed decision?

And what would you describe as an 'informed decision'. Naturally a decision that agrees with your opinion I take it.
Original post by Phoebe Buffay
This comes across as very bitter. How are you so sure that 'most people' don't have the knowledge to make an informed decision?

And what would you describe as an 'informed decision'. Naturally a decision that agrees with your opinion I take it.


An informed decision is one that takes into account all the actual facts and evidence. The leave voters are CONSTANTLY spreading blatant lies and denying solid statistics.

Just read the comments on any Daily Mail article. Half of these people are barely capable of forming a simple sentence. Maybe I'm just overly cynical because I've grown up in a poorer area surrounded by people like that, but I've met a ton of leave voters and UKIP voters, and while they've been mostly lovely people, they're ****ing stupid.
Original post by JordanL_
An informed decision is one that takes into account all the actual facts and evidence. The leave voters are CONSTANTLY spreading blatant lies and denying solid statistics.


And from my side, I see the claims made by the In campaign become more and more desperate by the day.

'Solid statistics' - this is very slippery with the truth


Original post by JordanL_
Just read the comments on any Daily Mail article. Half of these people are barely capable of forming a simple sentence. Maybe I'm just overly cynical because I've grown up in a poorer area surrounded by people like that, but I've met a ton of leave voters and UKIP voters, and while they've been mostly lovely people, they're ****ing stupid.


This is extremely patronising. How on earth do you think you would be able to convince anybody by speaking about people like that?
Original post by Phoebe Buffay
And from my side, I see the claims made by the In campaign become more and more desperate by the day.

'Solid statistics' - this is very slippery with the truth


I made plenty of claims here that are still true and all backed up with statistics.

This is extremely patronising. How on earth do you think you would be able to convince anybody by speaking about people like that?


I don't. These people can't be convinced, because they come to their own conclusions and can't comprehend that they might be wrong, regardless of the facts. I'm not referring to all leave voters, but there are a lot of people out there like this.
Original post by JordanL_
It's ludicrous. What's the point in electing politicians if the public's going to throw a tantrum and demand a referendum for every issue that they're completely uninformed about?

It just shouldn't be happening. Most people don't have the knowledge to make an informed decision on such a complex issue, that's why we don't live in a direct democracy. But for some reason everyone thinks they need to have an opinion on everything, regardless of how little they actually know about it, and then we have to have a referendum to appease them.

And then if they lose the referendum, we have to have another ****ing referendum.


So, the public are too stupid to vote on a single issue in a referendum, but they're capable of voting to change the entire government every five years?
Original post by Rinsed
So, the public are too stupid to vote on a single issue in a referendum, but they're capable of voting to change the entire government every five years?


Yes. When you vote for the government you're basing it on an overview of their policies, you're not making decisions on any particularly complex issues. You're choosing the people that make the complex decisions.
Original post by JordanL_


I think your arguments are quite poor to be honest. Some of them are not really arguments for staying in at all.

Original post by JordanL_


I don't. These people can't be convinced, because they come to their own conclusions and can't comprehend that they might be wrong, regardless of the facts. I'm not referring to all leave voters, but there are a lot of people out there like this.


Nothing to say to this. Because you have clearly made up your mind.
Original post by Davij038
No.


It's not often I agree with Maggie Thatcher but she was right about referendums.

It's a stupid costly vanity project that lets the government escape its responsibility and doesn't resolve anything.

If you want OUT vote UKIP and be done with it.


But on the other hand, the referendum was a key part of the Tory manifesto, and something which has been in demand from voters for ages.

If Cameron hadn't promised a referendum, more than likely a lot more people would have voted UKIP. Quite possibly that would have prevented the Conservative majority.

It's actually quite an interesting intersection of direct and representative democracy. You can disagree with referendums on general principle and that's perfectly reasonable, but the election gave a clear mandate from the electorate to hold one. It's nonsensical to then say 'but the issue should be decided in an election', when that's exactly where the decision to hold a referendum was made.
Original post by Phoebe Buffay
I think your arguments are quite poor to be honest. Some of them are not really arguments for staying in at all.


Any specifics?

Nothing to say to this. Because you have clearly made up your mind.


I've made up my mind that lots of people base their opinions on nothing and refuse to change when presented with facts because I've met lots of them. Do you really think they don't exist?
Original post by JordanL_
Any specifics?


I'm willing to give a rebuttal to some of the arguments you've presented if you like. It just sounds like you have argued this many times, and have made up your mind.



Original post by JordanL_
I've made up my mind that lots of people base their opinions on nothing and refuse to change when presented with facts because I've met lots of them. Do you really think they don't exist?


I don't doubt that they exist, just not in the quantities that you described.
Original post by JordanL_
Yes. When you vote for the government you're basing it on an overview of their policies, you're not making decisions on any particularly complex issues. You're choosing the people that make the complex decisions.


That's nonsense. I feel like election campaigns actually go into quite a lot of detail about the different policies. It's simply not true that everyone just votes on a whim after having read a one-paragraph summary of each party. If you do, that's fine, but a lot of people certainly do vote on issues.

For example. If a party stood up and said "We will take the UK out of the EU" (I mean a sensible party, not UKIP), and you vote for them or conversely against them on that basis, you are voting on exactly the same issue as we are now. Now yes there's other stuff going on at the same time, but it's perfectly possible to treat a general election as a referendum on a single issue.

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