The Student Room Group

Is feminism really so very reasonable?

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Original post by MrsSheldonCooper
I still don't get why there are so many feminists in the West to be honest. We have almost equal rights to men and in some cases, even more rights.

You want more rights for women? Go to Africa, the Middle East and South Asia and make sure young girls get an education instead of being forced into work or marriage or face torture for just wanting to learn.


But a lot of feminists in the west are still concerned about what women in Eastern cultures go through, women in the west still go through problems but it isn't as bad.
Original post by loveleest
But a lot of feminists in the west are still concerned about what women in Eastern cultures go through, women in the west still go through problems but it isn't as bad.


They may be concerned but in comparison to how much of a racket they make here, they do nothing about women in other places.
Original post by Little Popcorns
tell me why you care please


Why do I care about a major movement in society that relates to one of the most important relations (that between men and women) in society and affects so many facets of our civilisation?

Do you really need to ask that? KingBradly is making a serious point worthy of discussion. In reply you simply became abusive and hurled insults and patronising comments
Original post by KingBradly
But in reality this is actually a bit intellectually dishonest. Because feminists have very particular ideas about what equality means, and most of the time it doesn't just mean that men and women should be treated equally by the law. If that is what feminism was about, there would be no need for feminism to exist in this country anymore.


Exactly, but I'd say there's even more to it than just that because wound up in mainstream feminist thinking are these ideas of rape culture, of patriarchy theory etc. which distort the reality of where we are with respect to equality.
Reply 24
Original post by Milzime
It's not just in the law, it's socially etc. and an awkward cobbling together of all the people in the world who want to work towards a more gender-equal society. It's just annoying that the (inevitable) extreme or non-reprasentative 'feminists' and those who keep trying to call them out are hindering the overall movement towards a better world *shrug*



But seeing as the law treats men and women equally, beyond that you are dictating how people should act and what they should think.

Look at it this way: sure, I think women should be treated equally. But I also don't think that the objectification of women is problem, and I don't think it makes women less equal. Many feminists would, and have told me, that this means I don't "really" believe in equality, and therefore cannot be a feminist. So when you say "feminism is just about equality", it's not really the full story, because in reality the various different sections of feminism have different ideas about what equality means, and many of them have very specific ideas of what equality is, which if you deviate from in your own views, makes you therefore against equality, and therefore not a feminist.

Original post by rockrunride
I think there are a great many 'reasonable' feminists (ergo excluding the Twitter/Tumblr 'SJW' crew) that would disagree on that point. There is a way to go, and I say that as a man and observer.


Ok, so give me some reasons then.
Original post by MrsSheldonCooper
I still don't get why there are so many feminists in the West to be honest. We have almost equal rights to men and in some cases, even more rights.

You want more rights for women? Go to Africa, the Middle East and South Asia and make sure young girls get an education instead of being forced into work or marriage or face torture for just wanting to learn.


Ah but that would be "imperialistic", you see.

There was a university feministsoc president arguing on Twitter the other day that it is actually anti-feminist to oppose the burqa as you are opposing womens' choice. The irony is that while some women in the West may choose it freely, many don't and in the Middle East women countries where the burqa prevails women essentially have no choice to wear it or not.

This is an area where the SJWs become confused as everything always has to fit into a heirarchy of oppression, and Muslims are naturally at the top of that list so everything has to be subordinated to that concern of not being "imperialistic" or "Islamophobic"
I don't see anything wrong with feminism. Most sane feminists are liberal feminists, who recognise the fact that we are moving towards genuine gender equality.

Radical feminists, in my view, are just fat, ugly women who realise how awful they are and so advocate for idiotic things like seperatism. And unfortunately, these are the types of people who are the most loud and annoying, overshadowing the liberal feminists - which is a shame, really. It went from being a movement primarily concerned with issues like voting rights to the portayal of women in video games (looking at you, Anita Sarke-howeveryouspellit)

Plus, it's important to be a little bit less optimistic about the extent of gender equality. The gender wage gap, for example, continues to be an issue. Women are far more likely to suffer from domestic abuse than men. I think we've gone a long, long way, but there's still some work to be done.

Here is a great example of a feminist who isn't retarded - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MxqSwzFy5w&ab_channel=AmericanEnterpriseInstitute
Original post by MrsSheldonCooper
They may be concerned but in comparison to how much of a racket they make here, they do nothing about women in other places.


Some feminists can be very annoying and they are concerned about non-existent issues.
Original post by KingBradly


But seeing as the law treats men and women equally, beyond that you are dictating how people should act and what they should think.

Look at it this way: sure, I think women should be treated equally. But I also don't think that the objectification of women is problem, and I don't think it makes women less equal. Many feminists would, and have told me, that this means I don't "really" believe in equality, and therefore cannot be a feminist. So when you say "feminism is just about equality", it's not really the full story, because in reality the various different sections of feminism have different ideas about what equality means, and many of them have very specific ideas of what equality is, which if you deviate from in your own views, makes you therefore against equality, and therefore not a feminist.





it's easy to get wrapped up in definitions.

I disagree with your point about objectification, so we already have a kind of problem because I don't really think either of us is going to change our minds :dontknow:

either way, I suppose it's hard for those who don't get objectified, or maybe don't see it so much, to view it as an issue. I think there's lot's of things that suck about being a woman, but like everything else that sucks in life you've just got to deal with it. Feminism, equality, whatever you want to call it aims to minimise the things that suck so they don't pose problems to everyday life (I suppose)

as in, you should have no disadvantage in life because you were born one gender or another, and in feminism's case (as far as I believe) it's to make sure being born a woman isn't worse (or better) than being born a man.

*sigh* believe what you want, call yourself what you want, but try not to exacerbate inequality wherever you can. (message to everyone I guess)
Reply 29
Original post by Milzime
it's easy to get wrapped up in definitions.

I disagree with your point about objectification, so we already have a kind of problem because I don't really think either of us is going to change our minds :dontknow:

either way, I suppose it's hard for those who don't get objectified, or maybe don't see it so much, to view it as an issue. I think there's lot's of things that suck about being a woman, but like everything else that sucks in life you've just got to deal with it. Feminism, equality, whatever you want to call it aims to minimise the things that suck so they don't pose problems to everyday life (I suppose)

as in, you should have no disadvantage in life because you were born one gender or another, and in feminism's case (as far as I believe) it's to make sure being born a woman isn't worse (or better) than being born a man.

*sigh* believe what you want, call yourself what you want, but try not to exacerbate inequality wherever you can. (message to everyone I guess)


So you think I don't believe in equality then, because I don't have a problem with objectification?
Original post by Milzime
it's easy to get wrapped up in definitions.

I disagree with your point about objectification, so we already have a kind of problem because I don't really think either of us is going to change our minds :dontknow:


Is that really an issue confined to women, though? I'd say it's more a characteristic of late capitalism than of misogyny. Attractive men are just as much a media commodity as attractive women.
Original post by KingBradly
Ok, so give me some reasons then.


The pay gap is the big one. Also: objectification and the rise of 'lad' culture.
Reply 32
Original post by rockrunride
The pay gap is the big one.


The pay gap that has been found to be due to women's choices?
Original post by KingBradly
The pay gap that has been found to be due to women's choices?


Such as? The decision to have children is not one to be discriminated against - whatever the argument about productivity.

Decent paternity laws (Sweden) would be a game changer.
(edited 7 years ago)
Reply 34
Original post by rockrunride
Such as? The decision to have children is not one to be discriminated against - whatever the argument about productivity.

Decent paternity laws (Sweden) would be a game changer.


Choosing career paths that don't earn as much money (arts, rather than STEM fields).
Original post by KingBradly
So you think I don't believe in equality then, because I don't have a problem with objectification?


not necessarily, I don't really know. I find it hard to understand how objectification of women isn't going against equality...

*shrug* but I don't think that what you or I think about that really matters. What matters is that in a situation where we perceive inequality, we step in, or prevent discrimination based on gender wherever we can. :dontknow:
Original post by BeastOfSyracuse
Is that really an issue confined to women, though? I'd say it's more a characteristic of late capitalism than of misogyny. Attractive men are just as much a media commodity as attractive women.


Oh I agree completely, you're right yeah

I'm not very bothered with this.. I just think it's important everyone keeps equality in mind on an everyday basis whatever you call yourself.

Maybe stop buying a magazine that glorifies objectification of either sex. That kind of thing.
Original post by Milzime
I don't really know. I find it hard to understand how objectification of women isn't going against equality...


Probably because men are objectified too? As I said, an attractive man is just as much a media commodity as an attractive woman
Original post by KingBradly
It has become considered, by many, the sensible position to defend feminism. Saying that they are all a bunch of man haters will usually result in one being placated about how one should stop looking at tumblr as the source of all feminism, and should actually read some feminist texts.

Well, actually I have read a quite a lot of feminist texts, and I have to study many for my course. Some of them aren't terrible, and a very few of them are even quite good. But the idea that feminism is on the whole a quite reasonable, levelheaded movement is just total rubbish.

Let's look at the roots of the movement; the suffragettes. A group which had a very worthy film made about them recently, presenting them as brave and right-on to the core.

People seem to conveniently forget, though, that the suffragettes would send white feathers, symbolising cowardice, to conscientious objectors during WW1. Not so reasonable, in my opinion.

Or shall we look at some of the most foundational feminists texts? For example, the famous and widely respected (among feminists) The Dialectic of Sex: The Case for Feminist Revolution. The writer, Shulamith Firestone claimed that men cannot love, that male culture is "parasitical", and that “All men are selfish, brutal and inconsiderate". This is a woman who has been praised by writers as a feminist "hero" in publications as mainstream as The Guardian.

Then we have Andrea Dworkin, another feminist who is considered by many in the movement as foundational, and a hero. In fact, Shulamith Firestone and Andrea Dworkin, along with Germaine Greer and Simone de Beauvoir, are perhaps the most respected and popular feminist writers ever. People just getting into feminism will often read the works of these people first.

Here are a few Dworkin quotes: "Seduction is often difficult to distinguish from rape. In seduction, the rapist often bothers to buy a bottle of wine."

"Feminism is hated because women are hated. Anti-feminism is a direct expression of misogyny; it is the political defense of women hating."

"The civil impact of pornography on women is staggering. It keeps us socially silent, it keeps us socially compliant, it keeps us afraid in neighborhoods; and it creates a vast hopelessness for women, a vast despair. One lives inside a nightmare of sexual abuse that is both actual and potential, and you have the great joy of knowing that your nightmare is someone else’s freedom and someone else’s fun.”

Hardly sounds level headed to me. Sounds more like insane hyperbole and baseless conjecture.

Feminism has very small number of reasonable, intelligent adherents. It has some intelligent, unreasonable adherents. But to say that there is a REAL feminism, aside from the tumblr brand, which is very intelligent and very reasonable, and not man-hating at all, is utter rubbish. Tumblr feminism arose because there has always been a large section of feminists who really do hate men, either implicitly or explicitly, and who really are totally bonkers.


I think there are a lot of problems with the feminist movement, but I'd try to remember that it's a movement without a leader. I am a feminist. I don't stand behind everything Gloria Steinem or anyone else says. I simply believe that men and women should have equal rights. When you think about feminism, don't think about the books or the tumblr posts or anything else. Just think about the women around you on a daily basis who don't say anything but want equal rights. They want fair pay, better maternity leave (it's AWFUL in the US), and for people to believe them when they accuse a man of rape.

Spoiler


Just think of feminism as equality and ignore the grand messages of the "movement" because we don't all stand behind a lot of what's on the internet or in books. It's a varying thing.
Original post by Milzime
Oh I agree completely, you're right yeah

I'm not very bothered with this.. I just think it's important everyone keeps equality in mind on an everyday basis whatever you call yourself.

Maybe stop buying a magazine that glorifies objectification of either sex. That kind of thing.


I don't buy those kinds of magazines, and I'd say they're generally dying off anyway (magazines like Zoo) since the advent of internet porn.

But I reject attempts to have them banned as some have tried to do, that's not cool. There is a space for erotic depictions of women, just as there is a space for erotic depictions of men.

I don't think sexual commerce is inherently misogynistic (in practice it often is, but that means we have to work harder to ensure that there are real choices for employment advancement, that human traffickers are punished harshly etc)

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