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Calls for paying for sex to be outlawed

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Original post by BeastOfSyracuse
Actually, it is for those proposing the law to cite evidence. It is incumbent on those proposing the change, not those defending the status quo, to cite evidence.


Correct but missing the point - if you want to talk about having prostitution being all above board (i.e. relaxing laws on things like soliciting) then you need to show that it being illegal would be more harmful, particularly when human trafficking is so prevalent (17k into the US from other countries each year, in addition to an unknown number of people trafficked internally) that probability is the prostitute will have been coerced into it.


And the evidence from Sweden is that this law worsens the lives of sex workers, makes their lives more precarious. What Swedish sex workers have said is that it reduced the number of clients, particularly the better sort of client (law-abiding ones) and left the nastier ones who aren't afraid of breaking the law.

And because it reduced the number of clients while leaving the same number of sex workers, they had to accept lower prices for their work. They also said they felt more compelled to accept condomless sex as the clients knew that their relative bargaining power had increased (less clients, same number of sex workers) and thus the johns knew they could simply go elsewhere for it.


Care to provide links to this evidence then? Because from what I can find it's actually decreased the number of active sex workers: http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2013/dec/11/prostitution-sweden-model-reform-men-pay-sex
Original post by Stiff Little Fingers
Correct but missing the point - if you want to talk about having prostitution being all above board (i.e. relaxing laws on things like soliciting) then you need to show that it being illegal would be more harmful, particularly when human trafficking is so prevalent

That reverses the burden of proof from you to me, which I find unacceptable. Prostitution is currently legal in the UK to buy and sell, with certain legislative provisions (disallowing street prostitution, requiring them to live no closer than X to a school/church/hospital etc etc).

If you are proposing a change to outlawing it, it is incumbent on you to demonstrate we would experience better outcomes from your proposed prohibition than we would simply staying to the status quo.
Original post by BeastOfSyracuse
That reverses the burden of proof from you to me, which I find unacceptable. Prostitution is currently legal in the UK to buy and sell, with certain legislative provisions (disallowing street prostitution, requiring them to live no closer than X to a school/church/hospital etc etc).

If you are proposing a change to outlawing it, it is incumbent on you to demonstrate we would experience better outcomes from your proposed prohibition than we would simply staying to the status quo.


And you're talking about putting it all above board like any other transaction, which would include the dropping of the ban on solicitation...

However, I'd point out that thousands of women each year are trafficked with the express intent of being sex workers; and as we've seen in Sweden, the ban on purchasing sex has reduced the number of active sex workers and those being trafficked. Finding a way to crack down on trafficking and pimping and taking it to just two consenting adults, neither of whom are forced to be there would be preferable, but if you're looking at cutting it down then the approach Sweden took is actually effective.
Original post by Stiff Little Fingers
And you're talking about putting it all above board like any other transaction, which would include the dropping of the ban on solicitation...


Nope. I agree with all the current restrictions. The ban is on solicitation in a public place, which is an eminently sensible legal provision.

However, I'd point out that thousands of women each year are trafficked with the express intent of being sex workers; and as we've seen in Sweden, the ban on purchasing sex has reduced the number of active sex workers and those being trafficked.


No, it's simply displaced the destination of those trafficked women to other countries. The Swedish sex workers themselves report that that actually the number of sex workers has stayed broadly the same, but that the number of clients has declined (the ones who are law abiding now cross the border to Denmark, the ones who don't care about the law go on as before, leaving the sex workers with an overall much nastier group of clients). The sex workers have also said that the reduce in demand (the same number of girls chasing fewer jobs) has forced their prices down (thus making their lives more precarious) and caused them to feel more compelled to accept condomless sex due clients being able to simply ask another girl thanks to the relative oversupply

Finding a way to crack down on trafficking and pimping


We already have laws against trafficking and holding women in servitude for prostitution. The Met engaged in a large sweep of the brothels around Soho and Leicester Square. They raided dozens of such establishments, I think they interacted with some 400 working girls and found zero who were either illegal immigrants or were being held against their will.

The prohibition side always claims that human trafficking and prostitution servitude are ubiquitous in the sex trade, but I've seen no evidence for this. Given the huge number of working girls and rent boys who are independent operators (booking clients through the internet) or working in legal brothels, it seems possible that the prohibition side has massively overestimated the proportion of sex workers who are trafficked/enslaved. If that is the case then it further weakens the case that it should be illegal for a consenting male adult of say age 25 finding another consenting male adult of 25 through a website and those two agreeing to a sex transaction. Such a transaction has no element of trafficking, the sex worker is completely free to accept which jobs they want, they are both consenting adults have possess something the other wants. Prohibiting such a transaction comes across as using a very big hammer (massively overbroad legislation) to crack a problem against which there are already laws (and these laws are being enforced continuously by UK police forces)

looking at cutting it down then the approach Sweden took is actually effective.


I don't think that's true. Some very good academic analyses have been done broadly debunking the claims for the successes of the Swedish model, alongside the meaningful anecdotal reports from Swedish sex workers who have said the effect it had was to drive down their prices, put greater bargaining power in the hands of buyer and to ensure that most of the clients who are of a calmer and more law-abiding disposition are mostly absent amongst the people they see post-the law coming into effect

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