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Why isn't homosexuality a choice? (genuine question)

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Original post by Mr Hyde(r)
From a Darwinian point of view it wouldn't make sense to be born gay so in that respect it must be a choice (in the Darwinian sense ofc)
There are possible reasons why it might be beneficial to the species (well not homosexuality, but perhaps the factors relevant to giving rise to homosexuality.)

For example the genes which might be involved, might also code for other phenotypes (other things that are expressed), that are beneficial, and the advantages outweigh the potential costs.

Perhaps it's beneficial to those dormant.

Or perhaps there's no benefit, but no cost, so it generally remains constant in the population.

Also, I wouldn't think it'd be as much relevant to the epigenetics in the mother's womb part.

Original post by jamestg
Wow this is the first decent discussion I've seen on TSR for a while...


Interesting thought...

Original post by Vennec
That it changes doesn't necessarily mean it is a choice.


:thumbsup:

Original post by morgan8002
Technology, neuroscience and genetics research haven't progressed enough for it to be possible to change your sexual orientation. Hypothetically it could be done, but it's a long way off and I don't know why anyone would want to change it.


Seriously? It seems you've forgotten about then homosexual part of sexual orientation. :tongue:

Original post by jambojim97
If you're a misogynistic bisexual then yes defo a choice :smile:


lol

Original post by Josb
I know who she is, I just took the opportunity to tell her that I can't send PMs.


So you delete post after.
Original post by Anonymous
I agree with what you are saying about some people not coming out until they are older, I think this is definitely true and some people wait for the right time to do it. But let me give you one example I have experienced. I went on a family holiday about 3 years ago, there was this one girl there who had a massive thing for my brother, they were together for most of the holiday and there was even some periods when they would leave the holiday complex together for hours and then come back in the evening, it was abvious that she liked him. Anyway now she is lesbian, she goes to gay pride parades and has had a girlfriend. Now this leads me to believe that it is a choice because she was 16 at the time we went on holiday and I believe most people know what sex they are attracted to by the time they are 16. I have nothing against gay people btw just in case this was coming off that way, but I just feel like I have witnessed to many experiences like this to believe that homosexuliaty is 100% not a choice. :smile:


Trust me, at 16, it'd still be fluctuating as much as hormones (okay, maybe not as much, but a heckuva lot.)

Original post by yasminkattan
Really?

The types of food you like have a lot to do with the food you grew up eating. For example you may not like spicy food because you're not used to it. I don't like yellow melon today because it made me feel sick when I was really young.

So in this case, yeah, you can say it's about the things you're exposed to. Nurture. Not "how you're wired".


Point still stands that (he believes that) homosexuality isn't a choice.

Original post by yasminkattan
Original post by WoodyMKC
Not at all. There are a number of foods I was brought up eating but now dislike and vice versa - as your tastebuds mature, your taste in things changes and things don't taste good to you anymore, just like there are some things you were given as a child that you will forever love and other things you just wouldn't eat as a child and have never liked. In the vast majority of cases, it's all due to physiological processes, i.e. how you're wired. Just giving someone something they don't like eating and expecting them to end up liking it over time is a ridiculous notion tbh, just like telling someone that if they watched gay porn every day they'd end up being gay. Some would argue that being around gay people all the time would make you more likely to be gay yourself, but I don't believe this to be true for one.
Okay, so I can agree it's a psychological issue in that case, not something genetic.

And I don't think it's ridiculous because it happens all the time. I used to hate rockets in my salad, yet my mum kept insisting and adding it to salads until I got used to it and no longer have a problem with it. So I don't think it's a great comparison.



@yasminkattan Take his word for it; he has first-hand experience. :wink:

Original post by BlueSam3
Did you make a conscious choice to be sexually attracted to whatever subset of people you're sexually attracted to? There's your answer.


Nice one. :wink:

I'm stealing that for future use, if you don't mind.

.

Original post by Cobalt_
I'm Bi.

I didn't pick Bisexuality.
I was born this way and spent a long time of my life dealing with the unfortunate negatives which come along with it.

The most annoying and hurtful thing any Bi/Gay person can hear is the idea of you choosing your sexuality. Why on earth would someone choose a life where they can be discriminated against, have their masculinity mocked and be marginalised by society.

Dont get me wrong; I'm so happy with societies change in attitudes over the past years with homosexuality however its not perfect. We still have parts of the world/cultures/religions which would prevent a Bi/Gay man/women to be themselves. I would know a lot about that.

Before the "there is no gay gene" comment comes in, let me just rationalise that. In what world do you think a single gene would contribute entirely to your sexuality.
Being gay is just like being straight; its a combination of both genetic and environmental factors. There are many scientific studies which prove that you cant choose your sexuality.

Some interesting articles:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2015/06/11/the_science_of_sexual_orientation_the_latest_on_genes_chromosomes_and_environmental.html
http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-genetic-homosexuality-nature-nurture-20151007-story.html
http://www.livescience.com/50058-being-gay-not-a-choice.html

Its just time we end this debate/argument. You didnt choose to be straight, I didnt choose to be Bi. Simple as, end off.


My thoughts on this.


If the question about whether your sexual orientation was a choice was out of simple curiosity though? Not saying it was, not saying it wasn't, just wanting to learn etc. would it be hurtful then?

(By the way I'm also bi.)

Original post by yasminkattan
I've now heard it all.

How do people take these things seriously? I'm actually baffled


I think you undermine the complexity and intricacies of the human body.

Original post by Kiytt
Assuming you're a heterosexual male, OP, you should be able to understand how lesbians are attracted to females.

I would recognise how trying to understand how gays are attracted to males could be problematic, though.


lol


Original post by Kiytt
I've always wondered this, though: say you're exclusively attracted to males regardless of your gender, doesn't that mean on a day you identify as a female, you're heterosexual, and on another day you identify as male, you're homosexual?


This is when labels become a nuisance, because your actual attraction wouldn't change, but the labels change because it's your "sex / gender in relation to whom you are attracted to." Best just to ignore then them and just say e.g. "I'm attracted to men."

Original post by Kvothe the arcane
What sort of choice? Do you think everyone is capable of making this choice or are some people more fluid than others?



Oh really :colone:.


Although not addressed to me, I feel compelled to give it an answer.

(Be sure not to conflate this matter of choice with the potential of sexual fluidity.)

I am open to the possibility, because there's not uniformity in genetics (in terms of to the exact base sequence.) And then there's the interactions of those genes to different environments (epigenetics.)

Original post by bubblegumcat
no one chooses to be straight...I guess it's the same with gay people?


Posted from TSR Mobile


Good, nice & concise reasoning.
Original post by Anonymous
g̶e̶n̶d̶e̶r̶ sex*

(Just saying because it's more the sex / typical characteristics of sexes to which you are attracted, not gender. Me being a semantics nutter.)


More of a tumblr thing tbh, it doesn't really matter to most people
Original post by Anonymous

Although not addressed to me, I feel compelled to give it an answer.

I am open to the possibility, because there's not uniformity in genetics (in terms of to the exact base sequence.) And then there's the interactions of those genes to different environments (epigenetics.)


But epigenetic traits tendencies chosen. Although we do choose the environments which may increase likelihood of certain things :holmes:.

There are those that believe that you don't wake up one day and decide to be gay. But that if you consider it to be okay and associate the pleasurable experience of sex with the desire then your orientation will change. And that those actions which allowed you to become gay are what is the choice.
This is just one example, but homosexuals have been beaten, persecuted and discriminated against for centuries, and it still continues in some areas today. If people can choose their own sexualities, why subject themselves to such risks?

If you're bisexual no you don't have a choice, because you're still attracted to both sexes regardless of whether you are in a relationship.

They're still attracted to both sexes if they are in a relationship composed of a male and female, and if they are in a same-sex relationship; they're still bisexual regardless of relationship status.

There's also of course possible sexual fluidity, and even if they did change in terms of attraction, what makes you think that was a decision, or that (an element of) choice was involved?


Uhm, you don't get it... I'm not attracted to girls at all except middle part but not in-love with them... I said its complex and I'm not bisexual in any way. Best if I don't go with girls as I wouldn't actually love them like others would... I didn't get any of that stuff you said.. I'm being natural self not social pressure crap.
Original post by Miracle Day
How can you even profess to hold authority as to what was going through that girls mind. Let me give you the example of pro rugby player Gateth Thomas, gay with children and an ex-wife. Do you think anyone would have doubted he was a heterosexual? No. Do you think he would 'turned gay' when he made clear coming out in that sporting environment was the most difficult thing he ever did? No. Do you think, with hindsight, would describe himself as heterosexual on the day of his wedding day? No.

It's called conformity and being in the closet..


I have met gay people who have genuinely told me that they were straight before. They don't consider themselves bi as they no longer feel attracted to women.
Alzheimer's patients who have forgotten whom they chose to marry and what they chose to name their children usually have no trouble remembering their 'choice' of sexual preference.
Original post by Anonymous
g̶a̶y̶ same-sex* relationships


'Gay relationships' is just as valid a way of referring to relationships between people of the same-sex as 'same-sex relationships'. Even if someone identifies as bi or pan they may refer to their same-sex relationships as gay relationships. It's a widely used, and well understood, term so why you felt the need to 'correct' me when both terms mean the same thing I have no idea. And as this thread is about homosexuality specifically, I think 'gay relationships' was a perfectly valid term to use.
Original post by BWV1007
Surprise - there's this thing called bisexuality. There really should be a 2-hour crash course on sexuality at schools.


tbh more like ten minutes.
Original post by ckfeister
Its complex even as a gay person... you're attracted 50% to girls but not fully... and this is why people think its a choice. If your bisexual you have a choice though, majority go to straight but a few go gay side.


I don't think being attracted 50% to girls is gay (if you are a man). Sounds more like bisexuality with a preference for men.

Also, bisexuals don't really get to choose what gender they fall in love with or what gender they prefer because that's just as innate as being straight or gay.
Homosexuality is a personality disorder which should be treated.
Original post by Anonymous
It may be for certain / some individuals.

However evidence heavily leans towards no element of choice:
- two genes are implied for male homosexuality, I believe, and one cannot choose their genetics unless they spliced their own genetic code or volunteered for some sort experiment, neither of which homosexuals do
- epigenetics, gene expression in the mother's womb is believed to play a part, a foetus cannot choose to which hormones it is subjected
- surely many people would be compelled to (choose to) be straight, because of the homophobic attacks and homophobia around the world?



g̶e̶n̶d̶e̶r̶ sex*

(Just saying because it's more the sex / typical characteristics of sexes to which you are attracted, not gender. Me being a semantics nutter.)



g̶a̶y̶ same-sex* relationships



No, it wouldn't, because sexuality is multi-factorial, which I believe is evident by the almost-spectrum of it.



Were they really straight? And how have you determined that they were straight or then gay? Were you going by stereotypical characteristics by any chance?



If you're bisexual no you don't have a choice, because you're still attracted to both sexes regardless of whether you are in a relationship.

They're still attracted to both sexes if they are in a relationship composed of a male and female, and if they are in a same-sex relationship; they're still bisexual regardless of relationship status.

There's also of course possible sexual fluidity, and even if they did change in terms of attraction, what makes you think that was a decision, or that (an element of) choice was involved?

opposite / same g̶e̶n̶d̶e̶r̶ sex*It's nice to be debated though, a mutually beneficial experience.Read reply to jamestg at the top of this post.





There has been no evidence of a "gay gene" sorry to say.
Original post by SemiteLog
Homosexuality is a personality disorder which should be treated.


Far-right wingers is a personality disorder, which should be treated.
Original post by AperfectBalance
There has been no evidence of a "gay gene" sorry to say.


Its in development dumb dumb.
Original post by ckfeister
Its in development dumb dumb.


Well it is being studied but there is no actual evidence, and saying that it is in development does not mean it is true.
Original post by jamestg
I have been wondering about this for a while now, this is a genuine question by the way.

Surely it can be a choice?


Its not a choice because you cannot choose the perosn you are attracted to, it just happens. Have you ever decided 'I am going to be sexually attracted to that person/fall in love with that person?' it is impossible to do, when somebody says homosexuality is a choice, they are basically saying that gays are some sort of superhuman beings who can decide which gender they find attractive



When people say being gay is a choice, they are basically saying that gays are actually attracted to the opposite sex, they just try hard to torture themselves and have sex with members of the same sex whom they are not actually attracted to, but they decided they want to be homosexual. It makes no sense. It is completely ridiculous to even debate whether homosexuality is a choice, you dont need any scientific studies or anything to tell you it is impossible to choose to be gay.

Could you choose to be attracted to the same sex tommorrow? No. You could choose to have sex with a man and lie and tell everyone you are a homosexual,and you could even marry a man if someone offered you lots of money and decided to take it or something but you would still be heterosexual.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by AperfectBalance
Well it is being studied but there is no actual evidence, and saying that it is in development does not mean it is true.


Time to get educated.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSQSx3OCrXQ
Original post by banterboy
tbh more like ten minutes.


That is if we're excluding the Q&A session after the lecture.
Original post by ckfeister


Well that one cartoon has proved everything I said wrong, ok i give up

The thing about the womb thing is that it has not been proven that it makes you more gay on its own, it makes you more feminine, and that in turn Could lead you to choosing to be gay.

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