Switzerland Suspends Citizenship process for Muslim Family

Original post by Leukocyte

Shaking hands does not have to tie in with religion but do keep on waffling.

Posted from TSR Mobile

It does in this case though in fact it's rather the central point of the issue.

Reply 282

username2280427

Original post by Hydeman

A fine counter-argument, that. :rolleyes:

You always were the kind to resort to insults (and poor ones at that -- you consider being able to write in paragraphs a flaw? xD) when you've lost on substance, Mary. :wink:

'waffling' -- Not my fault that you can't read. :dontknow:

And no, it doesn't have to be a religious thing, nor have I said it does (nice straw man). The fact of the matter still remains that in this particular case it is religion-based sexism, even if that's of little relevance to the argument of those that support the Swiss authorities that it's an integration issue, not a religion issue. But I suppose reality, in your mind, originates in the rectum. :lol:

Aw you ok there, have I hit a nerve that you couldn't resist mentioning my name?

It's just really stupid and beyond pathetic that bc of religious beliefs (in this case the boy) citizenship is refused. Some people really need to examine themselves.

Original post by BaconandSauce

Because a hand shake is offered to someone and to refuse would be to offend them (in my culture and in most western cultures)

But it is a rule in the country they want to join and again just because you 'think' something doesn't make it so.

and it's not just a 'teachers' it's a women's so refusing to shake someone hand just because they are female should never be accpeted

Well if you find it offensive it isn't a great generalisation to the western culture and majority of people out there. It's just that you're more of a bigot so you would be offended ofc.

You're starting to sound even more stupid Bacon.

There is no rule.

Posted from TSR Mobile

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 283

Original post by Leukocyte

There is no rule.

Posted from TSR Mobile

Be an adult and try to discuss this without name calling there's a good chap.

Then why did the father seek an exemption if there was no rule?

And I like how you are so dismissive to my culture which is rather telling

Reply 284

Original post by Leukocyte

Nah I'll stick to my religion and beliefs.

Posted from TSR Mobile

What would they be?

Reply 285

Original post by Leukocyte

The Swiss suck anyway so I wouldn't want to join their pussycat 'gang'.

Whatever floats your boat, do carry on praising them mate. Appreciate them? Nah I'll stick to my religion and beliefs. Thanks.

Posted from TSR Mobile

If they suck so much, then why did these people go there, why do they stay there and why do they wnat to become citizens in a country which offers them safety, a home, a high standard of living and one of the highest qualities of life in the world?

Nobody made them apply, they cna go elsewhere. I dont need to praise them I just respect their right to choose who they want as citizens and who they dont.

Reply 286

Original post by TheArtofProtest

The government do not and have not represented the people. If they did, then we would be an isolationist country that still had the death penalty and would be living in the 1960's.

Perhaps they simply want a country that isn't a hellhole for them to live in but does that mean that they should abandon themselves and their heritage to acquire citizenship?

And going to work, paying your taxes and not breaking laws fulfills that obligation of citizenship.

We, and the Swiss, are not authoritarian countries that dictate to our/their citizens what they should and should not do, nor how they should behave.

Placing additional burdens on people, by convolution of their thought process, in an effort to homogenize their societies is a recipe for disaster.

We are talking about Switzerland here, but either way a government in a democratic system do represent their people.

Nobody is forcing these people to apply, thast the whole point. they are quite entitled to stay as refugees or under whatever visa has been given until its safe for them to return to their home country. That way they cna keep their heritage intact, but still take advantage of the free education, work opportunities and benefits the swiss give them.

Your idea of working and paying your taxes fulfills the obligation of citizenship is again quite wrong. When you join a country, hey want you to share their values and respect their customs. If you cnat then dont apply. they can get plenty of workers from elsewhere.

Wrong again, its perfectly fine for a country to decide what sort of people it decides it wnats to join them, its their right to do so. They dont have to homogenize its makes more sense to just let people in who have shared values and a complete disaster to let in people who refuse to intergrate. They should find another country more suited.

So really you are wrong about the right of the government to choose and wrong about the only requirement of citizenship is to work and pat your taxes.

If Swiss people asked to join an arab country, do you think they would have to respect their laws, values and customs? Do you think they would have to respect the right of the government to choose becayse they represented their people. Stop being self entitled, its privilege not a right.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 287

Original post by Leukocyte

Shaking hands does not have to tie in with religion

except that in this case the reason given for not shaking hands was religion

Under Swiss law, citizenship can be granted to aliens if they have resided for a certain number of years, and show that they are "well integrated". Cantons and communes have a wide discretionary margin in deciding if the criteria are fulfilled.

https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home/themen/buergerrecht.html

Reply 288

Original post by TheArtofProtest

There is no law, as yet (in the UK and dare I say Switzerland), requiring one to "integrate".

Swiss law requires authorities to examine aliens requesting naturalisation and check if they are well integrated. The relevant legislation is here https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classified-compilation/19520208/index.html

Art. 14 Suitability

Suitability

Before the licence is granted, the applicant's suitability for naturalisation must be verified, and in particular whether he or she:

a.
is integrated into Swiss society;
b.
is familiar with Swiss habits, customs and practices;
c.
abides by Swiss law;
d.
does not pose a risk to Swiss internal or external security.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 289

Original post by TheArtofProtest

Most countries, outside of the West, could not care less whether you share their values or respect their customs.

Arab countries do not hold themselves out to be tolerant, enlightened and a bastion of free rights.

Would be a valid argument if there were millions of westerners moving to these countries and trying to claim either asylum or citizenship

Because they are not as you say

'tolerant, enlightened and a bastion of free rights.' it simply isn't happening

And as you say we are better than these countries so why on earth would we want people from these countries to maintain the cultures and customs that have turned their own into the holes they are?

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 290

Original post by mariachi

Swiss law requires aliens who request citizenship to prove they are "well integrated"

The law will also be changed in Germany soon to ask for the same thing you want to become a part of the country you also want to be part of it's people and its culture

You want to be part of us fine we will welcome you. If you don't then go somewhere else please as you are free to leave.

Reply 291

Original post by TheArtofProtest

An arbitrary and vague measure.

Are there stages to "integration"? Would "full integration" be a re-enactment of 1850 and a "failed integration" be staying neutral whilst accepting money into their coffers? :toofunny:

conditions are defined by law. In my post 301 above I have given the link to the legislation and the relevant criteria,
If you disapprove of them, don't request the Swiss nationality

best

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 292

Original post by TheArtofProtest

Because we are not like the shithole countries that they come from. Because we are tolerant, enlightened and a bastion of free rights?

but that's where we will fail (and this is a typical cake and eat it argument) we are tolerant, enlightened and a bastion of free rights and we can only maintain this by not allowing those who don't support this citizenship or a place in our communities.

To say because we are tolerant, enlightened and a bastion of free rights we must accept those who aren't is wrongheaded.

We have standards we want to maintain and there is nothing wrong with wanting this to continue.

Reply 293

Original post by TheArtofProtest

The racists and right wingers seem intent on dragging us into the same pit as Iran, North Korea and Saudi Arabia.

I'd rather not spend my time living alongside such bitter and moronic ********s.

No they are simply trying to prevent our countries from becoming like them (but I do like how you call those who are trying to prevent our countries from becoming like the hell holes these people left 'racists and right wingers' :wink:

But as they say you are free to leave and pick another hell hole more to your liking

Reply 294

The_Internet

Original post by BaconandSauce

Right.

Don't believe you mind

I simply answered you RE: handshakes. You however have been antagonistic throughout the thread.

Reply 295

Original post by The_Internet

I simply answered you RE: handshakes. You however have been antagonistic throughout the thread.

No you targeted me with a specific comment

I am simply stating my opinion on the matter as is the norm on a discussion forum (perhaps you should try it something without getting personal)

Reply 296

Original post by TheArtofProtest

1, Nope they do represent the people, vecayse they are elected. We are talking about switzerland. If people choose not to vote then thats their problem. Sticck to the story.

2. In this case being compatible clearly is part of the requirement and hey have evert right to insist thats the case. Completely preposterous to suggest otherwise.

3. Not bothered about most countries outside the west. the fact is this concerns someone trying to join the swiss, where it does matter so your point was irrelevant.

4.Just because they have granted them refugee status, doesnt mean they have to grant them citizenship, which is completely different. there is a rule in the 51 Convention in Artcle 33 here is a rule against refoulment. It doesnt mean they wont be able to ship them off back to Turkey should they choose to do so.

5. There doesnt have to be a law to integrate, but they are perfectly allowed to judge their application and refuse it. At the moment they have merely suspended it.
They are perfeclt within their rights. there is no law that says just becayse you might pay taxes you are entitled to citizenship, which is soemthing you dont seem to comprehend.

6. Your last point was weak. If these people wnat to become swiss then they have to meet the standards expected just like everyone else. paying your taxes isnt enough. Privilege not a right.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 297

Original post by BaconandSauce

this is the usual "democratic paradox" : do our democratic freedoms also apply to those who want to use them in order to destroy them ?

in the past, this question was already raised about Communists, Nazis etc

in my view, the answer is not a simple one

Reply 298

Original post by mariachi

Swiss law requires authorities to examine aliens and check if they are "well integrated". The relevant legislation is here 9 https://www.admin.ch/opc/fr/classified-compilation/19520208/index.html )

This is available only in German, French and Italian (my translation from French)

art 14 : Aptitude

before naturalisation is authorised, the person requesting citizenship will be examined, in particular, on the following criteria :
a.
s'est intégré dans la communauté suisse; (he is integrated in the Swiss Community)
b.
s'est accoutumé au mode de vie et aux usages suisses; (he has grown accustomed to the Swiss way of life and customs)

c.
se conforme à l'ordre juridique suisse; ( he conforms to the Swiss legal order)
d.
ne compromet pas la sûreté intérieure ou extérieure de la Suisse. (he does not compromise Swiss internal or external security)

Good find and interesting addition o the discussion.

Reply 299