Does anyone get sick of hearing about Hillsborough?

Accidental cover-up? Interesting.

You seem to mistaking lack of evidence for lack of existence. I've explained, using logic, why it is almost inevitable that fans didn't have tickets but still tried to get in. Even some of those who did have tickets either trespassed or ignored the area of the stand they had been allocated.

There was no counter evidence. Counter evidence would only have been possible if they had gone round and actually checked who had tickets and who didn't. There was evidence that the police said people didn't have tickets but didn't truly know how many did and how many didn't.

Stop making irrelevant comments. I haven't denied the police handled the situation badly, in fact I've explicitly said they did. The mistakes of the police are not what I'm contending, I'm arguing that some of the fans must bear some responsibility.

But how do you propose they announce it? Shout to 5,000 people?

That was a contributing factor but not the only cause. Had people not trespassed (both by jumping over the turnstiles and by going to a part of the stand that they weren't allocated) then there would have been less of a problem.

1. I'm not sure that's strictly true, I'm not aware of any case that has ever held that. 2. I said police don't have a duty to recognise the medical state of another person.

Yes because the police are partially responsible so it's only fair they do.

As I've said numerous times the supporters trespassed which worsened the situation.

I don't see why you're so focused on the length of time. Inquests and trials go on for as long as it is seen necessary to examine the relevant evidence. Having a longer inquest or trial doesn't mean that a more thorough examination of the evidence has occurred it just means there was more presented.

It wasn't inevitable. The crush was caused by the opening of the gate and not cordoning off the tunnel. There is just no evidence that there were ticketless fans. None. They were directed into the pen which was already full.

In the absence of evidence you don't assume there was. You need to prove there was. The police officers in the inquest admitted they made up stories about thousands of ticketless fans.

Actually you did. Your first comment said it wouldn't have happened but for 'idiots without tickets'. That implies it was due to ticketless people yet there is no evidence that many let alone most of the 2000 people let through the gate did not have tickets.

Announcements on tannoys, etc news would have filtered through. I'm not saying that would have solved it all but it would have helped ease peoples' desire to get in.

It wasn't trespass. The POLICE opened the gate and directed people into the middle pen. There wasn't an allocation per pen like there is today. You were allocated an entrance and then chose which pen to go into.

The police could see the middle pen was full yet didn't close it and direct people into the side pens which is what should have happened. It wasn't to do with people jumping turnstyles, the crush was entirely caused by thousands of people being let through the gate and not closing the pen.

It's not a duty inherent to the police. If you are dying and clearly in pain and I prevent an ambulance reaching you i've breached my duty because I have assumed responsibility. The police actively stopped the ambulances getting to people who were dying and had no good reason to do so.

So you are justify the police cover up, their destruction of evidence, their making up lies and perverting the course of justice?

No they did not. Not at all. There is no evidence that they did. They did nothing wrong with regards to the crush. The fans arrived half an hour before kick off which is perfectly reasonable. The problem was there was only 7 turnstyles. 10,000 tickets were sold and there was 50000 in the ground and 5000 outside it. There were not lots of people without tickets.

Thousands upon thousands of documents were examined. Hundreds of ye witness reports. The police themselves admitted responsibility, that they opened the gate, that they didn't delay the kick off when they should and that they made up lies to pin the blame on the supporters.

Yet you, with no evidence whatsover think the supporters are to blame. Despite there being no evidence of the supporters in any way contributing and despite the inquest finding the police entirely responsible.

Apparently you know more than the 296 day inquest. You know more than the thousands of documents, you know what no-one else does based on the fact you go to football matches today.

Let me repeat, no evidence was found of mass peoples without tickets. There were no more people than could have been seated. There was plenty of room for everyone in the side pens yet the police directed everyone towards the main pen.

You are arguing the supporters are to blame for coming without tickets but you have zero evidence of even a single person arriving without a ticket. Your 'logic' does not trump the huge bodies of documents and evidence which when weighed up simply showed no evidence of huge numbers of fans without tickets. None.

But there is evidence of trespassing. By climbing over the turnstile booth you are trespassing. By going in through gate c when it was opened to let someone out you are trespassing.

Well is that not true? If those two thousand people had not been let in would the crush have occurred?

Well seeing as you're asking for evidence of the impossible I'll do the same: prove that announcing it over a tannoy (which may or may not even exist) would have helped.

Climbing over the turnstile booth is trespass. Going in through the gate when it was opened to let someone out is trespass. Going to a place you weren't allocated is trespass.

You're denying that people illegally entering the premises contributed to the disaster...

My point was the police likely didn't realise that people were literally dying. If I prevented an ambulance from reaching someone for no good reason, thinking they were only in pain not dying I would be responsible. If a policeman prevents an ambulance from getting to someone that's a different issue. Seeing as the families are the victims are now looking to cash in on the death of their family we'll find out from the wrongful death suit why the police prevented the ambulances

Is reasonable in respect to the the time they had to be in the stadium. However it's not reasonable in a practical sense. It's also not reasonable nor common for half of the fans in a particular area to all decide to only try and get in 20 minutes prior to kick off. You're saying there weren't lots of people without tickets but you have no more proof than I do. The fact is nobody knows how many people didn't have tickets.

No I want to give SOME of the supporters a SHARE of the blame.

There were considerably more than could have been seated. It's common knowledge that when seats were mandated in all areas of football stadiums capacities went down.

150 people did not cause the crush. The pen should have been closed. Thousands of people rushing in after that police had orered the gate to be open did.

You claimed it was caused by ticketless fans yet there is zero evidence that there were ticketless fans. None. The most comprehensive and lengthy inquest in British history and you seem to think they missed out on some evidence that only you have Because you go to football matches now apparently.

The reason anyone jumped over a turnstile was not becaus they were ticketless but because there were 7 turnstiles for 10000 people which meant thousands would miss the start of the game.
It was far too few turnstiles. I don't care if you've been to a football game before.
What the police should have done as was common practice is ordered the kick off to be delayed. Instead they ordered the gate to be opened and did not close the main pen.

It was the opening of the gate and not closing the middle pen which led to the rush and the deaths.
The police then lied and covered it up. Which you have glossed over.

The polices negligent actions caused the deaths. Firstly in not checking out the ground before and realising 7 turnstiles for 10000 people was not enough. Secondly for not delaying the kick off to prevent people rushing. Thirdly for opening the gate then claiming they didn't. Fourthly for not closing off the middle pen despite the fact the police could see it was full and instead when they should have directed people to the side pens where there was plenty of space. Fifthly for stopping ambulances entering the pitch when people were still alive.


There is no evidence of mass ticketlessness. None. yet you seem to think there was. You seem to know what no one else does.

You really will argue that black is white.
To blame it on ticketless fans when's there is zero evidence of them having been there is pretty astonishing. Despite the fact the police have now admitted responsibility you seem to know better.

Don't really understand how it was unlawful? Did the police force all these people to turn up? And did they force them into an overcrowded stadium? The whole thing was tragic but it was an accident. The police and stadium authorities didn't kill those people on purpose


Posted from TSR Mobile

With respect, you are addressing an irrelevance here.

An inexperienced police commander panicked. Why he panicked had nothing to do with information that was only established by the Taylor Inquiry.

The question Taylor omitted to answer was why were the fans abnormally late? Liverpool fans were familiar with big all ticket games. They were familiar with the stadium. There were no hold-ups on the road. No trains were late. Taylor referred to what was printed on the tickets but that doesn't explain the behaviour at that match compared with other matches. He dismissed the suggestion that there were significant numbers of ticketless fans. He dismissed alcohol as a cause (but his reasoning isn't good here, because he concentrates on the victims, not those at the back of the crush). Yet he did not say why they were in fact so late.

However Taylor does say, that at other matches there were significant numbers of ticketless fans determined to force admittance or riot to gain admittance and furthermore that this tactic worked.

The responsibility of football supporters in general and Liverpool supporters in particular (the police commander undoubtedly knew that his opposite number in Brussels had stood trial for the manslaughter of 39 people) for what happened at Hillsborough started long before Liverpool won their FA Cup quarter final.

The thing is, he didn't say that without any evidence. His conclusions followed an exhaustive inquiry that considered a great deal of evidence about the matter. You, by contrast, have stated you have no evidence at all to back up your position. Can you understand the difference, and why it makes you look foolish and ill-informed?

The climbing over the turnstyled of a few people did not lead to the crush, it was the opening of the gate, letting thousands through and not closing off the middle pen.

No, of course not. The crush was caused by thousands of fans being sent into the middle pen.

Absurd logic. I can't prove something that hasn't happened. All I can say is that there is certainly at least a chance it could have helped. It might not of but it might have and should have been done. Giving someone cancer treatment doesn't guarantee it'll cure them but it might and you do the best you can.

The gate wasn't opened to let people out, it was opened to let people in. I suggest you familiarise yourself with the facts.

Again, no evidence whatsoever that lots people did illegally enter. The cause of the disaster was the big rush of people who were instructed by the police to go through the gates. The piles of evidence and now the police show that ticketless fans did not cotnribute to the disaster and there is no evidence of lots of ticketless fans. None.

Doesn't matter it was obvious people were suffering and they prevented them receiving medical help. You don't have a duty to provide medical help but you do have a duty not to stop someone receiving it.

They didn't only try to get in then. They had been quieing for a while. It is not their fault that there were only 7 turnstyles for 10,000 people. The police did not inspect the ground before then. Had they done they would have realized how few turnstyles there were and planned accordingly.

Yes I do have more proof than you do. Because no evidence was found. If someone is found not guilty of rape, that techncially doesn't prove they haven't done it, but we regard them as having not done it. Innocent until proven guilty. Apply the same standards here. There is no evidence that there was mass ticketlessness. There is no evidence that there were significantly more fans than tickets. Innocent until proven guilty. They examined it in detal and found there wasn't sufficient evidence to say there was.

Your initial post said that it was down to ticketless idiots.
There is no evidence the fans contributed. It was entirely the decision of the police to open the gate and not close the middle pen.

What? There were no seats, it was a standing section, that's the whole point.

Being 'sensitive'......lol, liberal

You seem to have trouble grading the concept that most things are caused by multiple factors. Trespassing was a contributing factor.

Being sent? Please provide evidence fans were explicitly told by police to go into the middle pen and not simply not prevented from going in.

Well by that logic I could say if people had tried to flap their arms in effort to fly out of the stadium it might have helped. Realistically using a 1980's tannoy, that might not have even existed, is unlikely to have done much.

"While this request was being considered, Gate C - in the bottom left corner of the picture - was opened to eject a young supporter. Approximately 150 fans entered through the opened gate before it was closed by police. "

So I would say it's you who should familiarise yourself with facts.

Again, there's no evidence there weren't large numbers of ticketless fans, just no evidence there was.

Like I said, we'll see what comes out in the wrongful death suit these greedy people are filing.

Any evidence of how long they'd been queueing?

Yet you're happy to support the figures that say tens of thousands of people are raped each year despite there being no evidence to suggest that's true other than someone's word.

You're again missing the contributing factors point. There is evidence of behaviour that is consistent with people who don't have tickets such as jumping turnstiles and going into a gate when not explicitly told to do so.



Posted from TSR Mobile

Well you could give me some more details on this evidence he was privy to?

There were 2 differences between the policing at the 1989 match and the one in 1988.

In 88 people had their tickets checked at a cordon well away from the turnstiles. That meant there was no requirement for turnstiles with a throughput of 600/hour to get 10,000 people through in 90 minutes or so. So the exit gates could be opened to let people in with no problems of crushing around the turnstiles. If this had taken place then the police wouldn't have been pressured into making decisions in a panic.

In 88 when the queues for the turnstiles built up the exit gates were opened and the gates to the tunnel was closed. If this had been done no one would have died.

The policing in 89 was negligent. Success in the previous year from a different team of staff led to negligent levels of complacency in preparation and decisions on the day.

Why were more people allowed in than the stadium's seats catered for in the first place? That's not the police's responsibility


Posted from TSR Mobile

Have you read any of the reports?

The ticketed capacity for those stands wasn't exceeded - but instead of being spread across the west and north west terraces they were directed almost entirely into 2 small pens.