Why do the Brits have this idea that the EU is undemocratic?

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The parliament cannot write the budget.

Nor can the House of Commons, but both can stop it in its tracks.

Yes it can threaten to destroy everything unless it gets its way, but if it does not do that (and it is pretty hard to coordinate sufficiently to do that in a body made up of three or four different ideological splinters from each of 28 different countries) the decisions are made by the bureaucracy and merely passed to the parliament to be stamped.

False. This is sheer conspiracy theory territory.

Most votes in the parliament proceed by show of hands with dozens of "votes" held in the course of a few minutes. It is not even recorded (or measured) how many people voted Aye and Nay on each proposal, let alone how each individual representative voted. The parliament is just theatre, so it doesn't matter.

Just like the House of Commons then?

Reply 81

gladders

Original post by JezWeCan!

Where is the European Union's demos?

A valid concern! And I agree, and it's precisely why I believe the EU will always be oriented around Member States, and that alarmism about a federal Europe is unfounded.

Reply 82

Observatory

Original post by gladders

Nor can the House of Commons, but both can stop it in its tracks.

The House of Commons does write the budget.

False. This is sheer conspiracy theory territory.

Huh? None of that is controversial.

Just like the House of Commons then?

Commons votes follow a debate and any member may demand a division, neither of which are the case in the EU parliament.

Reply 83

BubbleBoobies

Original post by gladders

Commission>>>>>>> Cabinet.
European Council>>> Head of State
Council of Ministers>>Senate
Parliament>>>>>>>>>House of Representatives

so you're saying the EU is a federal state.
that's not a good thing.
did the UK ever *ask* for a federation with europe?
no - so that's undemocratic in itself surely?

also, parliament has effectively no power, or power linked with democracy - they are there to make the EU look democratic and very little else
their inability to amend or propose legislation makes the EU parliament look truly pathetic
also, how do voters in the UK influence the selection of president of the council of the EU? or the commission?
how do they influence the EU commission's directives? can we vote someone out to stop these directives? no, not in a million years

and even if you're going to tell me "the UK has similar power arrangements" - I *really* don't see how that is an argument *for* the EU, as opposed to *against the UK
are we being given a referendum to fix UK democratic problems like we are for the EU? no.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 84

brainhuman

Original post by Observatory

Exists in fewer and fewer cases. Usually what happens is that general decision making power over a broad area of issues is transferred to the EU institutions via a mechanism where the veto can be used, but if it is not then the veto cannot be used against EU decisions in that area in future. The power also cannot be clawed back except by unanimous decision.

So there is a ratchet effect whereby more and more powers are transferred irreversibly to the EU institutions.

It is a self-selecting bureaucracy.

What broad areas? In Germany we don't even have a single standard of education between Ländern, much less anything the EU says about education. I also don't see the EU telling countries what to spend on defense for example.

Most of these things will be small areas. Not broad.

Self-selecting by whom?

Oh yea, by its members. Every country chooses a member of the commission. If you don't like yours, tough. Doesn't make it undemocratic.

Reply 85

TimmonaPortella

Original post by brainhuman

Obviously?

Borders have been redrawn so many times throughout history, why are the ones we have now, final?

And what about South Tirol, Basque country, Catalonia, Bavaria? All of these regions used to be their own, all of them have voiced, to a lesser and greater extent, ideas of wanting to split from their current countries.

Bavaria for example is very much opposed to quite many things really of what is decided in Berlin.

Yes, obviously. I am British, I want the best arrangement to be made for Britain, and I want laws bearing upon domestic British matters to be made by British legislators.

You will find that most people here feel the same way: even those arguing for Remain argue in terms of the national interest. Very few appeal to Europe's best interests, or a European identity.

I don't really see that the views of Catalans, Bavarians, or even the Bloody Scots invalidate that. All of this stuff is ultimately visceral.

Reply 86

Observatory

Original post by brainhuman

That's not correct. The whole of German higher education has been reformed in line with the Bologna process. You might have noticed the disappearance of the Diplom. That was an EU initiative.

Self-selecting by whom?

Self-selection means selection by one's self. They choose their own replacements.

Oh yea, by its members. Every country chooses a member of the commission. If you don't like yours, tough. Doesn't make it undemocratic.

How does EU policy change when a commission changes? Have you noticed any difference in policy now that Juncker (a nominal conservative) has replaced the communist Barroso? These people represent the agencies; they do not formulate policy.

Reply 87

brainhuman

Original post by TimmonaPortella

And that is why in my opinion, you guys should get the hell out and keep sucking up to America to retain any sort of importance.

And I think you misunderstood. Your third paragraph relates to your first, not the second. They invalidate your national border argument.

Reply 88

TimmonaPortella

Original post by brainhuman

It relates to both. They're largely the same issue.

Reply 89

brainhuman

Original post by Observatory

That's not correct. The whole of German higher education has been reformed in line with the Bologna process. You might have noticed the disappearance of the Diplom. That was an EU initiative.

And you might have noticed that even though the UK is in the EU, they have not conformed to the Bologna process. In fact, most people in the UK probably have 0 clue what it is (because otherwise 9-months masters in the UK wouldn't be accredited).

But anyway, I was talking about schools, not universities. I am not quite sure why you would start an argument about this with a German...

Self-selection means selection by one's self. They choose their own replacements.

How does EU policy change when a commission changes? Have you noticed any difference in policy now that Juncker (a nominal conservative) has replaced the communist Barroso? These people represent the agencies; they do not formulate policy.

And who are the agencies?

Reply 90

brainhuman

Original post by TimmonaPortella

It relates to both. They're largely the same issue.

They are similar. But not the same.

And you ignored the point. What makes national borders so special? What makes the current ones the definitive, correct ones?

Reply 91

Observatory

Original post by brainhuman

Sure, the UK has ignored it. But you said Germany doesn't have uniform education policy - it does, it has EU higher education policy.

But anyway, I was talking about schools, not universities. I am not quite sure why you would start an argument about this with a German...

You are saying that the EU has little influence. It may be that the EU has little influence over German primary schools (I of course have no idea) but it is not true that the EU has little influence over German education policy as a whole. It is not true that Germany does not have uniform education policy.

And who are the agencies?

The EU civil service. These people govern the EU: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/atyourservice/en/20150201PVL00046/Recruitment

Reply 92

brainhuman

Original post by Observatory

Sure, the UK has ignored it. But you said Germany doesn't have uniform education policy - it does, it has EU higher education policy.

Dude stop. I did not say "germany has no uniform higher education" I said "Germany has no uniform education between Länder". Do you see the difference? Do you also understand the difference why this was done for higher education but not (compulsory) primary and secondary education, because it's a rather important distinction. Do you also see not see the importance of the fact that the UK is largely ignoring this policy?

The EU civil service. These people govern the EU: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/atyourservice/en/20150201PVL00046/Recruitment

And these random 8000 people come up with policy on their larry, completely independently, without any directive from anyone else?

Reply 93

gladders

Original post by Observatory

The House of Commons does write the budget.

Only in the most salutory terms. In reality you know it's written by the Government, and approved by the Commons - just like the European Parliament.

Huh? None of that is controversial.

Claiming that the Parliament is a rubber stamp does not do the Parliament justice. It is quite an active chamber and extracts concessions from the Council and the Commission all the time.

It's about as flawed as looking at the Commons, noticing the Government is rarely defeated, and assuming the Commons is therefore a rubber stamp.

Commons votes follow a debate and any member may demand a division, neither of which are the case in the EU parliament.

The EU Parliament's internal debating and voting procedures are its own and cannot be set by an outside agency. So MEPs, elected MEPs, are responsible for how the Parliament works.

Reply 94

gladders

Original post by BubbleBoobies

so you're saying the EU is a federal state.
that's not a good thing.
did the UK ever *ask* for a federation with europe?
no - so that's undemocratic in itself surely?

Why does that make the EU a federal state? Don't be obtuse.

[also, parliament has effectively no power, or power linked with democracy - they are there to make the EU look democratic and very little else
their inability to amend or propose legislation makes the EU parliament look truly pathetic
also, how do voters in the UK influence the selection of president of the council of the EU? or the commission?
how do they influence the EU commission's directives? can we vote someone out to stop these directives? no, not in a million years

All of this is based on UKIP-inspired scare stories. I doubt anyone here has actually bothered to read for themselves about the Parliament's activities.

and even if you're going to tell me "the UK has similar power arrangements" - I *really* don't see how that is an argument *for* the EU, as opposed to *against the UK
are we being given a referendum to fix UK democratic problems like we are for the EU? no.

What are you even blabbering on about?

Reply 95

BubbleBoobies

Original post by gladders

Why does that make the EU a federal state? Don't be obtuse.

the UK never asked for a federal union - so I'm telling you this is an undemocratic project by definition! why can't you read?

All of this is based on UKIP-inspired scare stories. I doubt anyone here has actually bothered to read for themselves about the Parliament's activities.

it really isn't. does the EU parliament have amendment or proposal powers independent from the commission then?

What are you even blabbering on about?

I've seen your other messages
you've compared the EU to the house of commons
I was telling you that it was stupid to compare the two when 1) we can change the HOC via elections. maybe not immediately, maybe not perfectly, but much more directly than the EU, and 2) we are being given a referendum to change the EU in a few months - we're not, rather, being given a referendum to change every single imperfection of the HOC. that's why it's not the same issue.

Reply 96

TimmonaPortella

Original post by brainhuman

They are similar. But not the same.

And you ignored the point. What makes national borders so special? What makes the current ones the definitive, correct ones?

This is my point to you, and why they are the same issue. There is no such thing as a 'correct border', any more than there is a 'correct national identity'.

Reply 97

brainhuman

Original post by TimmonaPortella

This is my point to you, and why they are the same issue. There is no such thing as a 'correct border', any more than there is a 'correct national identity'.

So why are you saying that you want British things to be decided by British people?

Reply 98

JezWeCan!

Original post by gladders

A valid concern! And I agree, and it's precisely why I believe the EU will always be oriented around Member States, and that alarmism about a federal Europe is unfounded.

That is the whole problem. The EU's fatal flaw.

A common currency was introduced without a Federal political system. A catastrophic error, still unresolved (Greece can't afford to service its crippling debt, Germany can't afford to write it off).

There is a common threat to Europe's borders caused by migration, but no Federal system of dealing with the migrants. So hundreds of thousands rot in refugee camps in the border states and the barbed wire goes up.

The only answer to the EU's problems IS to become a Federal State.

Reply 99

brainhuman

Original post by JezWeCan!

Good post.

And fair enough if you do not want that.

But what I don't like is most people regurgitating false or misleading information about the EU when in reality exactly what you wrote is the reason they want to leave. Stop withe the stupid we are paying in so of course we must leave. Stop with saying its undemocratic. Just say I want Britain to be Britain, I don't want to be with Europe.