Livingston truther - political correctness is finally eating itself hahahahaha
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Original post by WBZ144
Not anti-Semitic per se but equally controversial/prejudice views held in nearly every society.
I do not see your point.
@Observatory and we all know how accurate polls are...particularly if they're based on the Internet.
In your other post:
No, not so sure about the Armenian genocide. It was far less visible than the holocaust and far less methodical. Also Armenians were t as dispersed as the Jews. Can you prove they're politically motivated?
As for labour: yes they need to do more to stop people like that getting in. What's interesting is how this mirrors Ukip and not for the first time I'm disturbed by how similar the Corbynites act to the Farageists .
In your other post:
No, not so sure about the Armenian genocide. It was far less visible than the holocaust and far less methodical. Also Armenians were t as dispersed as the Jews. Can you prove they're politically motivated?
As for labour: yes they need to do more to stop people like that getting in. What's interesting is how this mirrors Ukip and not for the first time I'm disturbed by how similar the Corbynites act to the Farageists .
Original post by Davij038
@Observatory and we all know how accurate polls are...particularly if they're based on the Internet.
In your other post:
No, not so sure about the Armenian genocide. It was far less visible than the holocaust and far less methodical. Also Armenians were t as dispersed as the Jews. Can you prove they're politically motivated?
No, not so sure about the Armenian genocide. It was far less visible than the holocaust and far less methodical. Also Armenians were t as dispersed as the Jews. Can you prove they're politically motivated?
Again, what is your point? I am not making any claims about the history of the Armenian genocide.
As for labour: yes they need to do more to stop people like that getting in. What's interesting is how this mirrors Ukip and not for the first time I'm disturbed by how similar the Corbynites act to the Farageists .
And my point is that if they try hard to stop people like that getting in they will lose whole constituencies and alienate a somewhat significant and growing fraction of their voter base. Hence they have more likely adopted a policy of not asking too many questions when a Muslim candidate shows up or when Muslim supporters show up, and of turning a blind eye when those people say anti-Semitic things, and of adopting views of such people motivated by anti-Semitism to the greatest extent they can without strictly being anti-Semites themselves (e.g. "anti-Zionism").
I agree that there is some similarity with UKIP who on the one hand must not appear publicly to be a racist party while at the same time not alienating a voter base they know to be at least in part composed of racists. The difference is that UKIP don't have as much control over our culture as the left does. UKIP cannot normalise racism, whereas the left probably can normalise anti-Semitism.
@Observatory
Disagree on polling- it's useless
On the Armenian genocide, you said that the holpcaust was used for political purposes where's the Armenian one was ignored or used in a political way. I said there were lots of reasons why the holpcaust carried more weight than the Armenian one (time also plays a part)
With labour they've suspended two offendeders and even John mcdonnell is being robust on this.
If your version of the left controls the culture- why do we have a Conservative party in government*, a majority right wing press and growing fears about immigration? Etc etc
(Yes I know camerons not a 'real' Tory, but some are- and even Cameron is preferable to say Miliband )
Sounds like bull **** to me
Disagree on polling- it's useless
On the Armenian genocide, you said that the holpcaust was used for political purposes where's the Armenian one was ignored or used in a political way. I said there were lots of reasons why the holpcaust carried more weight than the Armenian one (time also plays a part)
With labour they've suspended two offendeders and even John mcdonnell is being robust on this.
If your version of the left controls the culture- why do we have a Conservative party in government*, a majority right wing press and growing fears about immigration? Etc etc
(Yes I know camerons not a 'real' Tory, but some are- and even Cameron is preferable to say Miliband )
Sounds like bull **** to me
Original post by Davij038
Disagree on polling- it's useless
Polling is always useless when it disagrees with our prejudices. Reality is that e.g. electoral outcomes very rarely disagree with polling predictions. The best example of an election differing from polling was last year's UK general, and even then the result was within +-3ppt of the poll prediction.
On the Armenian genocide, you said that the holpcaust was used for political purposes where's the Armenian one was ignored or used in a political way. I said there were lots of reasons why the holpcaust carried more weight than the Armenian one (time also plays a part)
I said that the sudden desire to turn Holocaust memorial day into holocausts memorial day was politically motivated.
With labour they've suspended two offendeders and even John mcdonnell is being robust on this.
Sure, after a right wing blogger (Guido Fawkes) exposed them. I do grant that Labour is not institutionally anti-Semitic; it is not an anti-Semitic party. It merely turns a blind eye out of self-interest.
If your version of the left controls the culture- why do we have a Conservative party in government*, a majority right wing press and growing fears about immigration? Etc etc
(Yes I know camerons not a 'real' Tory, but some are- and even Cameron is preferable to say Miliband )
Sounds like bull **** to me
(Yes I know camerons not a 'real' Tory, but some are- and even Cameron is preferable to say Miliband )
Sounds like bull **** to me
The country has been getting lefter every decade for about three centuries, the only exception being the 1980s when the failure of left economic ideas became too great to hide. The Tories would be regarded as a communist party in 1900.
Original post by Brillo100
I am so happy that this stupid, you can't say what you want - you can't tell the truth - you can't offend people political correctness is imploding in on itself with the former mayor of London now being labelled a thought criminal.
The joke is that anyone is labelled an extremist if they express certain opinions like any opinion about a group hahahaha yes any opinion about a group, or any counter to whitewashed history by Cameron's new ideas about extremism.
This country has become a joke. Someone says something true that is classed as offensive and they are hauled before a panel of self-righteous gits who don't even believe in what they are doing because they personally agree with what the person said but as its contrary to the ideology, they are punishing him. It's doublespeak.
When is this madness going to end? When we finally get the guts to face these "triggered" people or doublespeak mob rule people defaming and ruining people for saying something with basically invisible handcuffs. We need to tell these people with an issue, either a personal issue or official issue to shut the hell up, yes just shut up, just shut it, if you invade my natural rights to speak, I will bloody well invade yours.
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The joke is that anyone is labelled an extremist if they express certain opinions like any opinion about a group hahahaha yes any opinion about a group, or any counter to whitewashed history by Cameron's new ideas about extremism.
This country has become a joke. Someone says something true that is classed as offensive and they are hauled before a panel of self-righteous gits who don't even believe in what they are doing because they personally agree with what the person said but as its contrary to the ideology, they are punishing him. It's doublespeak.
When is this madness going to end? When we finally get the guts to face these "triggered" people or doublespeak mob rule people defaming and ruining people for saying something with basically invisible handcuffs. We need to tell these people with an issue, either a personal issue or official issue to shut the hell up, yes just shut up, just shut it, if you invade my natural rights to speak, I will bloody well invade yours.
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You can say and criticise what you want, you're just scared of getting beat up because the brown men are more fighty.
Original post by Observatory
Polling is always useless when it disagrees with our prejudices. Reality is that e.g. electoral outcomes very rarely disagree with polling predictions. The best example of an election differing from polling was last year's UK general, and even then the result was within +-3ppt of the poll prediction.
I do kinda agree, but I remain very skeptical about Internet based polling.
€
I said that the sudden desire to turn Holocaust memorial day into holocausts memorial day was politically motivated.
I said that the sudden desire to turn Holocaust memorial day into holocausts memorial day was politically motivated.
But do you have any evidence?
Sure, after a right wing blogger (Guido Fawkes) exposed them. I do grant that Labour is not institutionally anti-Semitic; it is not an anti-Semitic party. It merely turns a blind eye out of self-interest.
I think you're conforming to your prejudices there. Institutions have nothing to do with it. It is individual responsibility to tackle serious offences. For instance, in regards to the child grooming scandals: Some like the Rotherham mp failed and blamed it on political correctness whilst Simon Danczuk (for all his other faults) blew the whistle immediately. There is an investigation into how Ms shah got elected and the PLP have demanded and succeeded in getting an anti sensitism enquiry.
The country has been getting lefter every decade for about three centuries, the only exception being the 1980s when the failure of left economic ideas became too great to hide. The Tories would be regarded as a communist party in 1900.
I would say that generally this is the result of liberal ideology (not neccessarily left wing) and the explosion of capitalism. The whole self centric individualism is anathema to most left wing thought and is the central tenet of the centre right that has been the predominant political outlook in the last forty years.
Original post by Observatory
I do not see your point.
My point is that in most societies you will find a form of bigotry and prejudice that is widespread, including Israel. But that does not justify demonising everyone from said society because there will always be those who don't hold such views. Not difficult to grasp, really.
Original post by WBZ144
My point is that in most societies you will find a form of bigotry and prejudice that is widespread, including Israel. But that does not justify demonising everyone from said society because there will always be those who don't hold such views. Not difficult to grasp, really.
Either you are arguing that we should accept prejudice everywhere (which would be odd, but logically coherent I guess), or you are saying that we should condemn and try to isolate both Muslim anti-Semites and other bearers of unjustified prejudices, in which case, what of it? Nothing I've said suggests we shouldn't, this thread just happens to be about anti-Semitism in the Labour party, which is predominately of Muslim origin.
Original post by Observatory
Either you are arguing that we should accept prejudice everywhere (which would be odd, but logically coherent I guess), or you are saying that we should condemn and try to isolate both Muslim anti-Semites and other bearers of unjustified prejudices, in which case, what of it? Nothing I've said suggests we shouldn't, this thread just happens to be about anti-Semitism in the Labour party, which is predominately of Muslim origin.
This was about not generalising an entire group of people. I am sure that Muslims who hold no prejudice towards Jews would not agree that anti-Semitism was one of their characteristics.
Original post by WBZ144
This was about not generalising an entire group of people. I am sure that Muslims who hold no prejudice towards Jews would not agree that anti-Semitism was one of their characteristics.
I have not said that every single Muslim is an anti-Semite, nor does the line of argument I've proposed require it.
Original post by Observatory
The country has been getting lefter every decade for about three centuries, the only exception being the 1980s when the failure of left economic ideas became too great to hide. The Tories would be regarded as a communist party in 1900.
The country has been getting lefter every decade for about three centuries, the only exception being the 1980s when the failure of left economic ideas became too great to hide. The Tories would be regarded as a communist party in 1900.
That's called progress. Conservatives defend things that would have made them radical once upon a time.
What Livingstone said was completely out of order and it's only right that he is suspended. And his defense of Naz Shah? What was he thinking?!
Having said that, I'm quite enjoying watching the people who spent the last two decades shutting down any dissenting views against them with smears of racism in the most nasty and underhand ways finally getting a taste of their own medicine. They 100% deserve it. The difference in these cases is it's accurate. Still, they can give it out with shrieks of delight but have complete meltdowns when they have to take it.
On a side note, a lot of you "progressive", "inclusive", "empathetic" SJW types showing your true colours lately. Rather enjoying it.
Having said that, I'm quite enjoying watching the people who spent the last two decades shutting down any dissenting views against them with smears of racism in the most nasty and underhand ways finally getting a taste of their own medicine. They 100% deserve it. The difference in these cases is it's accurate. Still, they can give it out with shrieks of delight but have complete meltdowns when they have to take it.
On a side note, a lot of you "progressive", "inclusive", "empathetic" SJW types showing your true colours lately. Rather enjoying it.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by KimKallstrom
What Livingstone said was completely out of order and it's only right that he is suspended. And his defense of Naz Shah? What was he thinking?!
Having said that, I'm quite enjoying watching the people who spent the last two decades shutting down any dissenting views against them with smears of racism in the most nasty and underhand ways finally getting a taste of their own medicine. They 100% deserve it. The difference in these cases is it's accurate. Still, they can give it out with shrieks of delight but have complete meltdowns when they have to take it.
On a side note, a lot of you "progressive", "inclusive", "empathetic" SJW types showing your true colours lately. Rather enjoying it.
Having said that, I'm quite enjoying watching the people who spent the last two decades shutting down any dissenting views against them with smears of racism in the most nasty and underhand ways finally getting a taste of their own medicine. They 100% deserve it. The difference in these cases is it's accurate. Still, they can give it out with shrieks of delight but have complete meltdowns when they have to take it.
On a side note, a lot of you "progressive", "inclusive", "empathetic" SJW types showing your true colours lately. Rather enjoying it.
Please stop attacking the 'left'. Being left wing actually comes from a working class British heritage and has nothing to do with either support, or opposition, for the mass immigration which is plaguing this country today okay??
Original post by Brillo100
I am so happy that this stupid, you can't say what you want - you can't tell the truth - you can't offend people political correctness is imploding in on itself with the former mayor of London now being labelled a thought criminal.
The joke is that anyone is labelled an extremist if they express certain opinions like any opinion about a group hahahaha yes any opinion about a group, or any counter to whitewashed history by Cameron's new ideas about extremism.
This country has become a joke. Someone says something true that is classed as offensive and they are hauled before a panel of self-righteous gits who don't even believe in what they are doing because they personally agree with what the person said but as its contrary to the ideology, they are punishing him. It's doublespeak.
When is this madness going to end? When we finally get the guts to face these "triggered" people or doublespeak mob rule people defaming and ruining people for saying something with basically invisible handcuffs. We need to tell these people with an issue, either a personal issue or official issue to shut the hell up, yes just shut up, just shut it, if you invade my natural rights to speak, I will bloody well invade yours.
Posted from TSR Mobile
The joke is that anyone is labelled an extremist if they express certain opinions like any opinion about a group hahahaha yes any opinion about a group, or any counter to whitewashed history by Cameron's new ideas about extremism.
This country has become a joke. Someone says something true that is classed as offensive and they are hauled before a panel of self-righteous gits who don't even believe in what they are doing because they personally agree with what the person said but as its contrary to the ideology, they are punishing him. It's doublespeak.
When is this madness going to end? When we finally get the guts to face these "triggered" people or doublespeak mob rule people defaming and ruining people for saying something with basically invisible handcuffs. We need to tell these people with an issue, either a personal issue or official issue to shut the hell up, yes just shut up, just shut it, if you invade my natural rights to speak, I will bloody well invade yours.
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If livinstone said anything bad about islam there would be a meltdown
Original post by john2054
Please stop attacking the 'left'. Being left wing actually comes from a working class British heritage and has nothing to do with either support, or opposition, for the mass immigration which is plaguing this country today okay??
I didn't mention the left. You did. I'm actually talking about a specific element of people who have poisoned left wing politics in recent years to the point where they're currently unelectable in this country
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Plagioclase
Livingstone was not "speaking the truth", Hitler signing an agreement to get rid of the Jews to Israel as a short-term fix does not mean he was "Zionist". That is a ridiculous interpretation. And why on earth did he bring it up? What relevance does this agreement have with anything, unless he was very intentionally trying to make some kind of comparison between Zionism and Nazism? To make these kinds of statements, particularly just before the London mayoral elections and at a time when the Labour party is already being accused of being antisemitic, is just stupid. I don't think he's an antisemite but these comments are offensive enough to warrant a suspension at the very least.
Livingstone said that Hitler was aligned to Zionist policy and the Haavara agreement was aligned to Zionist policy. It was signed by Zionist organisations.
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Original post by drosstalk
If livinstone said anything bad about islam there would be a meltdown
What did Livinstone say that was bad about Jews? He literally said something about history that triggers people.
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Original post by KimKallstrom
What Livingstone said was completely out of order and it's only right that he is suspended. And his defense of Naz Shah? What was he thinking?!
Having said that, I'm quite enjoying watching the people who spent the last two decades shutting down any dissenting views against them with smears of racism in the most nasty and underhand ways finally getting a taste of their own medicine. They 100% deserve it. The difference in these cases is it's accurate. Still, they can give it out with shrieks of delight but have complete meltdowns when they have to take it.
On a side note, a lot of you "progressive", "inclusive", "empathetic" SJW types showing your true colours lately. Rather enjoying it.
Having said that, I'm quite enjoying watching the people who spent the last two decades shutting down any dissenting views against them with smears of racism in the most nasty and underhand ways finally getting a taste of their own medicine. They 100% deserve it. The difference in these cases is it's accurate. Still, they can give it out with shrieks of delight but have complete meltdowns when they have to take it.
On a side note, a lot of you "progressive", "inclusive", "empathetic" SJW types showing your true colours lately. Rather enjoying it.
Why was Livingstone out of order? Why is it out of order to state a true historical fact?
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Original post by Brillo100
Why was Livingstone out of order? Why is it out of order to state a true historical fact?
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You see nothing wrong with his defence of blatant anti-senite Naz Shah or comments like "real anti-Semites don't only hate Jews in Israel, they also hate their neighbour in Golders Green."? Youre an anti-Semite if you think either of those is acceptable.
The hitler comments is grabbing the headlines but it seems you're incapable of thinking beyond headlines. The comments about Hitler being a Zionist is not one considered anywhere near truthful by anyone with even a basic knowledge of the subject and is only seriously bought into by - coincidentally - antisemites. But let's leave that aside and agree to disagree even though you're wrong. What do you think of the comment I highlighted above regarding "real antisemites" and his defending of Naz Shah?
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