Views on veganism / vegeterianism

From what I've seen, meat eaters only start digging when militant vegans start with their self-righteous BS, veganism isn't on our minds generally.

The environmental problem is largely the beef industry, not the dairy industry. South American extensive cattle ranching (for beef) is probably the worst culprit.

(I should also note that Parmesan cheese is not vegetarian, it contains calf rennet, and mozzarella often does as well.)

Nope. The beef industry would not be economic without the dairy industry.
If vegetarians did not eat dairy the beef industry would be uneconomic (those dairy cows end up as beef).

I'm fairly sure this is untrue. I can't be bothered actually searching it, but I believe beef cattle are raised as beef cattle and not as ancient butchered dairy cows. By the time dairy cows are finished with they certainly are slaughtered, but they are not used to make steaks.
Certainly in Saudi Arabia there is a very large dairy industry within the country, however the beef is not those cows but is instead imported from South America and Australia (adding an additional carbon footprint).

I mean I don't think the whole world should stop - people should be allowed to eat meat if they want to and they shouldn't if they don't want to.
But I most definitely do commend vegetarians and vegans, I mean I could never live without meat. Especially bacon, like I've been a muslim for nearly 2 months now and im still not used to it. I even tried being vegetarian once, lasted like 3 days.

So what exactly is the purpose of these cows and sheep etc. being there? All they do is eat and sleep all day long.

I will agree with you in the first paragraph and for the mercury levels in fish except, tuna is actually very high in mercury even research it, and its one of the most popular fish people eat. The rest does include fish like shark, swordfish. However you didn't answer my other points, guessing because you didn't have one.
Vegetarians/vegans can get plenty of zinc from mushrooms, spinach, seeds, nuts and other veg or they could take supplements. Technically you do not need heme iron as long as you keep your iron levels high by eating iron riched foods or taking supplements if you need to. B12 can be a problem I will admit, but it can be easily overcome by again taking supplements and there are vegan foods that do have B12 (personally I don't take any supplements and I have great health). But overall at least our diets cause less/no harm to animals and are helping the planet, and we are more likely to live longer, less likely to get heart diesease etc. (the list could go on).
Cheese and other animal products are even worse for our diets but I have given enough info.

I did answer your other points. Those dangers you raised all stem specifically from the overconsumption of red meat. That is what causes the problems. I make a point of eating red meat three times a week at the absolute most for precisely those reasons. If you're eating white meat, you are at no greater risk of any of the things you mentioned than a vegetarian/vegan.

Tuna shouldn't be conflated with the other 'mercury risk' fish, because it's nowhere near as bad. The CDC released a report that said a 200lb man could eat a can a day of tuna and see no adverse affects. Further, mercury (or more accurately methylmercury) levels are reduced by N-acetylcysteine, a derivative of cysteine which is primarily found in animal proteins. So tuna really isn't that high risk unless you're literally eating a tuna steak every day.

Surely taking supplements is far from ideal though? If a diet demands that you have to take (and buy!) supplements to stay healthy, that would suggest the diet is hardly the healthiest way to sustain yourself. And I'm not saying there aren't options for vegetarians/vegans to get these minerals, I'm saying that vegetarians/vegans have been found to be regularly deficient in these three nutrients, amongst others. Which would again suggest that their diet is not ideal.

Don't really buy the ethical argument behind it tbh. We're omnivores, we're designed to eat meat, so I'm not gonna feel bad for doing just that. And as I've said a couple times now, all the risks you're referring to are a result of red meat specifically; an omnivorous diet with predominantly/exclusively white meat is likely better for you than a vegetarian/vegan one.

It's BS is it? This is exactly what I was referring to; thank you for proving my point.

Different people have different experiences I suppose, but I've certainly had my fair share of digs despite having never been hostile towards meat eaters.

At the end of the day, it's natural for people to, after discovering the appalling techniques used and often having even seen videos of these, want to inform others of the things that they personally wish they'd been told earlier. Most vegans/vegetarians don't hate meat eaters (most in fact used to eat meat themselves and thus understand your perspective), they just want to save innocent animals from getting mistreated.

From Wikipedia:
Money Source One:
To maintain lactation, a dairy cow must be bred and produce calves. Depending on market conditions, the cow may be bred with a "dairy bull" or a "beef bull." Female calves (heifers) with dairy breeding may be kept as replacement cows for the dairy herd. If a replacement cow turns out to be a substandard producer of milk, she then goes to market and can be slaughtered for beef. Male calves can either be used later as a breeding bull or sold and used for veal or beef.

Money Source Two:
Domestic cows can live to 20 years; however, those raised for dairy rarely live that long, as the average cow is removed from the dairy herd around age four and marketed for beef.^[9][11] In 2014, approximately 9.5% of the cattle slaughtered in the U.S. were culled dairy cows: cows that can no longer be seen as an economic asset to the dairy farm.^[12]These animals may be sold due to reproductive problems or common diseases of milk cows such as mastitis and lameness.^[11]

Without meat eating the dairy industry would not be economic (its only barely economic now)

You didn't answer the fact that white meat can contain lots of bacteria due to the fact that every time you eat chicken you're also eating actual crap, doesn't sound too nutritious to eat another animals feces? But compare meat to veg, fruit and other vegan foods, if I eat to much veg for example will I have an increased risk of cancer, heart disease and obesity, doubt it (maybe obesity if I literally eat tons but unlikely).
You also saying taking supplements is not idea which made me laugh out loud, no jokes. You know what isn't ideal? How the animal cruelty industries are destroying the earth and hurting others. Cows must consume 16 pounds of vegetation in order to convert them into 1 pound of flesh. Raising animals for food consumes more than half of all water used in the U.S. It takes 2,500 gallons of water to produce a pound of meat but only 25 gallons to produce a pound of wheat. Producing just one hamburger uses enough fossil fuel to drive a small car 20 miles. Of all raw materials and fossil fuels used in the U.S., more than one-third are devoted to raising animals for food. A typical pig factory generates the same amount of raw waste as a city of 12,000 people. According to the Environmental Protection Agency, raising animals for food is the number-one source of water pollution. More than 80 percent of the corn we grow and more than 95 percent of the oats are fed to livestock. The world’s cattle alone consume a quantity of food equal to the caloric needs of 8.7 billion people—more than the entire human population on Earth. According to the Worldwatch Institute, “Roughly 2 of every 5 tons of grain produced in the world is fed to livestock, poultry, or fish; decreasing consumption of these products, especially of beef, could free up massive quantities of grain and reduce pressure on land.” This food could then be used to feed other humans, rather than animals people eat. Also animal farms are responsible for 73% of the ammonia released into the air. The ammonia can react with other gases in the air and cause respiratory problems and contribute to smog and acid rain. And one-third of our greenhouse gas emissions come from agriculture. I could continue but I think thats enough.
You also said you don't really buy the ethical argument? Humans can be omnivores but you don't have to be, many people live as herbivores and as healthy as can be. Were not 'designed' to eat meat we most likely evolved as it was the easiest source of food years ago, but times have changed and its easier to be vegetarian/vegan than ever. And you say you don't feel bad? Have you seen how animals are treated in these industries, its barbaric and brutal? Lions go out and catch there own kill as they are carnivores and do what they need to do to survive. Humans eat meat for one reason, lets get real, because they like the taste and its convenient despite the fact that its rotten flesh from another animal and its bad for the world and cruel to the animal, don't you think they want to live too? When people eat dogs and **** everyone goes crazy when I defend other animals who don't have a voice people think I'm crazy? wheres the logic?

I've said this time and time again, but I find many more people obnoxiously complaining about militant vegans than actual militant vegans. I mean just look at the first page of this thread. There are about ten people complaining and possibly, arguably, one vegan trying to convince people in a very gentle way.

Your own source says 9.5% of cows slaughtered are dairy cows. Lets cut down beef consumption by 90.5% then. As I have mentioned every time, the big problem is the beef industry, where huge areas of land are used for cows to just make beef. The beef from the dairy industry is such a small percentage anyway as your source shows that it's almost incidental.

While I am a meat-eater myself, I acknowledge that vegetarianism/veganism is the more ethical option. Ideally I want to become a vegetarian at some point, but I can't right now because a) I like the taste of meat and b) I'm just used to it. Nevertheless I admire vegetarians and readily concede they're a lot more morally consistent than me.

It's interesting to see meat-eaters' preemptive attacks on militant vegans. I'm guessing they do it because deep down on some level, they know that consuming animals is wrong. Most of them don't want to face the fact that they are contributing to the torture and slaughter of billions of animals, so they get overly defensive about their diets.

What kind of an argument is that?! I presume you wash food before you cook with it? Washing and cooking the food before you eat it largely solves the problem with regards bacteria in my experience. Once again, increased risk of heart disease, obesity and cancer have been linked to overconsumption of red meat and processed meat. There is absolutely nothing to suggest white meat carries any such danger, and indeed the studies all say that white meat is incredibly good for us.

Taking supplements isn't ideal. It's not cheap, and it pretty much confirms that a vegetarian/vegan diet is less healthy than an omnivorous diet based on white meats. You're admitting that a vegetarian or vegan diet does not give you all the nutrients you need to be healthy, whereas an omnivorous diet does.

I don't buy the animal cruelty argument one bit. It's not cruel to live off of your natural prey. That's a fact of life, it's nature. By your argument, we shouldn't build cities because these involve clearing land to make room, which definitely would result in the deaths of thousands of animals, and we could always live in huts instead. And cars are most certainly out of the question, just think of all the animals that have died because we have automobiles; what was wrong with horse-drawn carts anyway? Your argument is specious.

I actually don't disagree with you about the huge damage that cows have on the Earth in all kinds of ways, but you'll notice again that this is red meat. Last I checked, fish, poultry and the like are having nothing like so damaging an effect. So whilst you've presented a great many arguments against red meat - which I don't dispute for a moment - you've put forward little and less to dissuade someone from white meat.

You're right, we don't have to be omnivores. It's just cheaper, more convenient and better for your health, presuming you steer clear of red meat. Your point about the animals wanting to live; I presume you've never killed a spider, fly or any other insect then? Or is it only animals of a certain size you sympathise with? I hope you always watch where you're walking, lest you commit genocide on a vast scale against the poor innocent ants among us. This is another specious argument.

Also, no wonder you're revolted by meat. If I was being served rotting flesh, I'd be a veggie in no time too!

P.S. Chill out dude, it's a debate about a difference of opinion, no need to get quite so aeriated.

Sorry but you did not add in the calves from MONEY MAKING ONE.
tut tut.