[POLL] Should waterboarding be legal in interrogation?

Scroll to see replies

Reply 40

thunder_chunky

Original post by Wee.Guy

thats not true,

it does work, it has worked.

It's unreliable, as well as being inhumane.

Reply 41

Jibola240

Water boarding in Guantanamo bay sounds like rad holiday. If don't know what either is.

In all seriousness though, nah.

Reply 42

Kvothe the Arcane

No, because it's ineffective and unreliable.

It's also inhumane but I'm pragmatic and don't believe in moral absolutes.

I suspect that if it were a thing that were guaranteed to work, I would find it morally justifiable. I'd consider one person's discomfort and pain as being worth the lives it would save.
But the contrived situation above is irrelevant as it isn't reliable. There is also the point that the wrong person could be targeted.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 43

BaconandSauce

No.

If we stoop to their level we are no better than they are.

Reply 44

jamesthehustler

Original post by Bornblue

That's a fallacy though. There has never been an example of a terrorist attack prevented by information obtained through torture.
None.

i didn't here that over the sound of american freedom

Reply 45

username878267

Original post by jamesthehustler

i didn't here that over the sound of american freedom

So America is only free because it tortures? Any proof of torture ever working?

Reply 46

champ_mc99

Original post by Bornblue

So America is only free because it tortures? Any proof of torture ever working?

If it hasn't ever worked, why still do it?

Reply 47

username878267

Original post by champ_mc99

If it hasn't ever worked, why still do it?

That's illogical. Faith healing has never been shown to work so why do people still do it?

There is no single case of torture having led to the prevention of a planned attack.

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 48

username878267

Original post by Wee.Guy

i would say that this is a problem of any punishment. Every jail sentence is permanent.

Example, you jail someone for 10 years later you find out theyre innocent, that 10 years can not be given back,the time with your children growing up can not be replaced, your relationship with friends, family partner are affected, partner could have divorced and remarried, parentts could have died believing/ last memory behind bars .

Few punishments if any are as inhumane as torture.

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 49

champ_mc99

Original post by Bornblue

Don't get me wrong. I agree with you. But I just don't understand their reasoning for carrying out torture if all evidence points the other way.

Reply 50

Thutmose-III

I believe it should be permitted in some limited circumstances; it should be allowed in a situation where you have a "ticking timebomb" scenario.

It is the received wisdom, and completely untrue, that torture never works. The Israelis, who have a lot of experience with interrogating large numbers of people (and thus being able to assess its value) have no doubt that moderate physical and psychological pressure (slapping people around, sleep deprivation, loud music, etc) can be very effective.

That needs to be distinguished from torture where it is used to obtain false confessions, or torture for torture's sake. Slapping someone around and depriving them of sleep is clearly not the same as tearing fingernails out or sodomising them with an electrified baton, the sort of things you might see in Saddam Hussein's prisons.

Reply 51

Thutmose-III

Original post by Bornblue

That's simply not true. The Israelis have used what you would call torture (moderate physical pressure) very effectively; Shin Bet interrogates large numbers of people and only uses such pressure in a small number of cases.

Their duties involve interrogating and processing the sort of numbers that allow them to assess its effectiveness.

The idea that "torture never works" is itself a faith position. There was a case in the European Court of Human Rights; a murderer who had kidnapped a young boy and sent a ransom note to his parents was captured by the German police. He refused to say anything so they started slapping him around and threatening to throw him out of a helicopter. He broke, and admitted the boy was already dead and showed them to the body

So clearly it does work in some situations.

Reply 52

Thutmose-III

Original post by champ_mc99

If it hasn't ever worked, why still do it?

It has worked. The idea that torture doesn't work is the received wisdom of people who can't be arsed to actually research the subject.

There was a case in the European Court of Human Rights; a murderer who had kidnapped a young boy and sent a ransom note to his parents was captured by the German police. He refused to say anything so they started slapping him around and threatening to throw him out of a helicopter. He broke, and admitted the boy was already dead and showed them to the body. Clearly it does work in some situations.

The Israeli Shin Bet, which probably has the most experience of all the internal security agencies in the free world, is very clear that moderate physical and psychological pressure (slapping someone around, sleep deprivation, loud music) can elicit information that they wouldn't otherwise be able to access.

During the first intifada Shin Bet looked at the numbers and concluded that using physical/psychological pressure they were preventing around 90% of terrorist attacks, if they stopped using it they would probably only prevent about 70% of attacks.

Reply 53

spv

This would just coerce a statement, regardless of veracity.

Reply 54

Thutmose-III

Original post by Bornblue

Few punishments if any are as inhumane as torture.

Posted from TSR Mobile

"Torture" isn't a punishment (in the situations we're talking about). It's a tool to elicit information

It's also quite clunky to use the single word to describe both ripping someone's fingernails out and sodomising them with an electrified baton for opposing the regime (as would happen under Saddam Hussein), and on the other hand slapping someone around and playing loud music to maintain psychological pressure on them to elicit information

The two situations are clearly quite different

Reply 55

Thutmose-III

Original post by spv

This would just coerce a statement, regardless of veracity.

That is a misconception. "Torture" clearly does work to elicit information from people.

There was a case in the European Court of Human Rights; a murderer who had kidnapped a young boy and sent a ransom note to his parents was captured by the German police. He refused to say anything so they started slapping him around and threatening to throw him out of a helicopter. He broke, and admitted the boy was already dead and showed them to the body. Clearly it does work in some situations.

The Israeli Shin Bet is also very clear that using moderate physical and psychological pressure (slapping someone around, depriving them of sleep, playing loud music for hours and hours on end) will elicit information when the normal techniques of interview will not work

People often confuse the intentions of "torture"; yes it can be used to force someone to confess to crimes they didn't commit. But moderate physical and psychological pressure is not seeking to obtain a confession, it's seeking to obtain verifiable information which can be checked and confirmed. There is no question that such pressure can be effective in obtaining this information

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 56

username878267

Original post by Thutmose-III

In the first case torture didn't work. It saved no lives. The argument put forward is that torture can save lives but there is no single verified example of it doing that. None. In that case not a single life was saved by torture.

Not to mention the horrifying situation of someone who doesn't have information being tortured for it.

Posted from TSR Mobile

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 57

username878267

Original post by Thutmose-III

Nop. The degree of control and intention are key, not necessarily the severity of the harm. It's the intention to break a person by causing them great physical and mental fear and pain.

Again, there is not a single verified example of torture preventing an attack. It simply does not work.

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 58

Thutmose-III

Original post by Bornblue

In the first case torture didn't work. It saved no lives.

What do you mean it didn't work? It elicited information the criminal would not otherwise have provided, so clearly it did work. You're claiming that such pressure can never lead to additional information, that case shows you are wrong.

But I'm happy to cite a case where physical pressure saved lives; the case mentioned on pp 88-90 on The Gatekeepers book. A ticking timebomb situation in Peta Tikvah where they captured the terrorist who had already planted a bomb and needed to find out where it was. They were successful. Lives were save

Reply 59

Thutmose-III

Original post by Bornblue

Again, there is not a single verified example of torture preventing an attack. It simply does not work.

I've already mentioned one, the attack on Peta Tikvah outlined by Yaacov Peri on pp 88-90 of the Gatekeepers book.

The German case already completely destroys your position such that you're forced to play games and move the goalposts. The German case shows that physical pressure can induce someone to reveal information they otherwise would not have; your position collapses.