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A gender neutral bisexual future?

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Original post by Xelfrost
This is correct, the world is overpopulated... However the birthrate in pretty much every western country is below "Replacement level." I made a point in my post about how my issue isn't even with gay people and made no points about them being an issue anyway so I have no clue why you're being up in arms over that.

Source for replacement level claim just cause: https://www.pop.org/content/fertility-decline-western-europe (There's many more like this, you can google the rest)



You quote me expressing concern about gays being "Normalised" when I didn't even say that (lmfao as you say)... So I don't really know what you want me to say here.



I simply said that Liberals wouldn't agree with my statement, your post confirms this, so thanks.



Being in the conservative party =/= being a conservative, just ask UKIP



I agree, which is why I didn't talk about homosexuals.



Once again, I didn't say that. I said the reason religion promotes heterosexuality is due to the fact they want high birth rates, despite being religious I'm not defending it here, nor using it as a justification.



Explain male/female gender roles being present, and on top of that, virtually identical in virtually every species of animal in the planet.



Read above point



Gross oversimplification



Facts don't care about your feelings, and the facts say that, for the most part at least, transgender people kill themselves in increased numbers by a significant amount when undergoing surgery. Therefore I do not condone it as a method of treatment. That is all I said on the matter and it is all I will say on the matter as the only thing I am trying to do here is to stop people killing themselves.




I wasn't aware she was the "Leader of Feminism," Like most people I assumed it splits into many different groups (Third wave, Fourth Wave, Intersectional, Radical, et-al)



You are wrong. Read my sources.



Being born with the wrong brain is the main argument that the Trans lobby uses. Although they word it as being born in the wrong body.


No, that is literally you calling me a bigot.



I provided sources for my claims, most of which were scientific papers. You on the other hand have misquoted what I've said and tried to put across a narrative that I hate the homosexual community. I am fully open to debate on what I believe in but at least do me the courtesy of arguing my points as opposed to making up stuff. It is clear to me that you, as a member of the LGBT community care about these issues. And believe me I am glad for you that you have something you care about. However this doesn't mean I have to agree with you. Likewise I do not expect you to agree with me on this topic. I am a social conservative and you a clearly socially liberal and it is to be expected that we will not agree. I am simply putting my views on the issue into an open discussion on our opinions on the matter.


1. Pal, you're reading very butthurt. Calm down. You clearly made a reference between deviant sexualities, namely homosexuality, and reproduction. That was crystal clear. Do not try and distort that, it was very evident.

2. Again, your source is from 1994. Things change as the years progress. Read the things you submit before submitting them. Also, I don't really see how its relevant. If people choose not to reproduce then they don't have to. It's not an issue. The world is vastly overpopulated as it is and it is not causing any problems having less people.

3. In linking to the points above, this is your statement, copied and pasted from your own piece, that evidences them equally. You did make those statements. You did allude to those things.

"homosexuality is not an act I take prejudice against, however I believe that promotion of it as something to aspire to to be societal suicide, as intolerant or bigoted that may come across for a society to continue existing it requires heterosexual intercourse to happen to produce offspring, this is why all forms of religion have verses along the lines of 'Go forth and multiply.'"

4. My political affiliation, which is actually quite centrist, has nothing to do with it. I have an understanding of these issue from my own personal experience and I also have sources that support my points. Yours support yours yet have much less backing and they are also out of sync - the modern world has moved on since 1994 and 1999. Things have changed. Prejudices existed then that do not now. Issues were going on in the world that are not now. You have not selected properly; it is almost like you just saw these sources and jumped because they 'agree' with you. I have read them all through twice. My point remains.

5. No, it's true. I can see that. However, you are missing the point. Liberalism can come in multiple forms. You can be both conservative and liberal. UKIP even have some arguably liberal approaches to a select few issues.

6. You referenced to them and you also called an act as the above quotation states perfectly.

7. How can you say you didn't use it as a justification? You totally did, you literally said and "this is why..." and went on to use a religious reference. I think you're getting in tangles because somebody has refuted you too well to be perfectly honest. You are making very little sense and contradicting yourself a lot whilst attempting to maintain an argument... it's not really working as a result.

8. Male and female gender roles exist as a result of what we have constructed through religion, through our biological dispositions, through the fact women are submissive in sex, through many things. They exist for tonnes of things and the fact that they change throughout history is representative of the fact that they are social constructs. They have biological links, I am not disputing that but they are not a part of biology themselves and also the reference to animals is incorrect. There are many cases where the female is much more dominant in animalistic relationships.

9. I have read the above point... you haven't refuted it at all.

10. You call it a gross oversimplification yet you do not explain your own corner in response... because you can't. Your assertion that they are virtually identical across species and that they are present does not refute my point.

11. No. Facts do not say that and these facts have a direct correlation with feelings because that is what you are talking about. And the feelings and attitudes are very appropriate in relation to this very issue. It is so essential and relevant because it is exactly those that have a root-cause effect in why things go pear-shaped for the average transperson, or rather can go as such. I gave you three sources that discuss the statistics well and they are government approved. They are much better than your google-search finds. You are not trying to stop people killing themselves because you do not even fully understand why they do it in the first place. You are jumping the gun because you've seen one table and an article or two. There are two sides to everything, critics of everything and just because you've found the opposing side to fit more with your personal beliefs does not render it accurate scientifically, psychologically or statistically.

12. No. Germaine Greer is the official leader of the Fourth Wave Feminist movement. Whether or not you associate yourself with her and her line, is another thing entirely.

13. No, again, you should read what has been written before writing. I clearly said 'in relation' to what was said. There have also been many more tests done, much more recently that discredit your source. And they are approved and carried out professionally. You are going with what aligns to your beliefs and not with what has the most substantial support and credibility.

14. Being born in the wrong body is not the same as being born with the wrong brain. You are literally taking a comment out of context to suit your own argument and that is a complete, gross, misinterpretation. The second coined phrase (bodily relevant) is indeed used by the Trans' community. However, it is used flippantly to convey that they feel like they have the wrong biological body because of the link between gender and sex. It is essentially trying to argue that they feel like they are a girl (if a transman) or a boy (if a transwoman) in simplistic terms because most people do not understand. And the community is not a lobby; pressure group - so ridiculous.

15. No. A bigot means you are intolerant of others' opinions. That is not what I said. I said you are coming across very bigoted, obscured and ignorant. I said this because you are not accepting much more substantial evidence and facts in favour of outdated sources because they align with what you yourself think. And that is ignorant and that is bigoted. You are unwilling to accept what now is the proven reality because it goes against a 1994 chart and your opinions. That's it put simply.

16. You have provided sources but they are not very good ones at all. Their can be evidence for both sides of any credible argument. However, that does not mean the side you believe in more, wins. The side with the most support and evidence is the one that tends to be that generally followed and this is what has happened here. Too much has been produced in recent years about these issues and your original assertions have been discredited. That's the truth and that is all there is to it.

17. I did not misquote you. I quoted exactly where you said it above. I also did not try to say you hate the homosexual community because you made it very clear, in writing, that you don't feel prejudiced towards it. However, some of your views suggest otherwise. And that does not mean you hate anyone. It means you don't understand the connotations of your beliefs and what they really mean to that community. It's no good saying that you don't feel one way and then proving you do on the another note. It's silly. You literally juxtaposed opposites like a damn oxymoron.

18. I have argued your posts very strongly and very closely. I addressed everything you said. You did not address everything I said and in a couple of cases you completely read over things. I made nothing up as I have proven in this current post. You did say exactly what you are claiming you did not.

19. I am glad you are glad and I am fully aware you don't have to agree but I reserve the right not to take you seriously or with much credibility if you refuse to proportion your beliefs to the plain evidence in favour of obscure details just because they support your point of view. As that is clearly what you are doing. Sorry, but it is. I am actually a centrist, as I said. And you are putting your opinions across and I am putting mine across, with support. I don't see why you are outlining this. I have addressed you directly, fairly and with relevance to every single statement you have made. I do not see why you are making this comment.
Original post by Trapz99
I am a straight natural male.


I'm not trying to start a dispute here but why do you insist on trying to be controversial and difficult? Why bother including 'natural' in there? You are just hoping to spark a feud and a debate.

Natural = observable in the natural world. Homosexuality is. Homophobia and anti-gay rhetoric exists in one single species - homo sapiens.
Original post by ivybridge
I'm not trying to start a dispute here but why do you insist on trying to be controversial and difficult? Why bother including 'natural' in there? You are just hoping to spark a feud and a debate.

Natural = observable in the natural world. Homosexuality is. Homophobia and anti-gay rhetoric exists in one single species - homo sapiens.


In my experience people like this will never see it that way, they're too far in their own ignorance to see the facts.
Pretty much everyone who approaches this topic with an open mind can clearly see homosexuality is natural and not even exclusive to humans. Hell we aren't even the gayest animal out there. But these types will sit there with their hands over their ears denying the obvious. Probably because a centuries old book told them so.
Original post by Zargabaath
In my experience people like this will never see it that way, they're too far in their own ignorance to see the facts.
Pretty much everyone who approaches this topic with an open mind can clearly see homosexuality is natural and not even exclusive to humans. Hell we aren't even the gayest animal out there. But these types will sit there with their hands over their ears denying the obvious. Probably because a centuries old book told them so.


I know, I just thought I would make the point because I don't like standing down lol.

I agree, 100%. I can understand the rhetoric behind why people think it's unnatural but they're warping the definition of 'natural' and 'unnatural' so that it goes beyond what it actually means.
Original post by ivybridge
I know, I just thought I would make the point because I don't like standing down lol.

I agree, 100%. I can understand the rhetoric behind why people think it's unnatural but they're warping the definition of 'natural' and 'unnatural' so that it goes beyond what it actually means.


Yeah people seem to confuse unnatural with abnormal. I don't mean abnormal as in a bad way either, I literally mean it as in it isn't the norm.
But even the unnatural thing doesn't seem very valid either. How much of our lives is actually natural? Not the food we eat, not the things we do. Medicine, jobs, marriage, TSR, none of these things are natural. It's a cop out excuse for bigotry imo

i also don't know why i'm ranting this to you, probably because it's like 2AM and I like ranting :lol:
Original post by Zargabaath
Yeah people seem to confuse unnatural with abnormal. I don't mean abnormal as in a bad way either, I literally mean it as in it isn't the norm.
But even the unnatural thing doesn't seem very valid either. How much of our lives is actually natural? Not the food we eat, not the things we do. Medicine, jobs, marriage, TSR, none of these things are natural. It's a cop out excuse for bigotry imo

i also don't know why i'm ranting this to you, probably because it's like 2AM and I like ranting :lol:


110% agree (see, the better the rant, the higher the awarded percentage:wink:)
Original post by ivybridge
I'm not trying to start a dispute here but why do you insist on trying to be controversial and difficult? Why bother including 'natural' in there? You are just hoping to spark a feud and a debate.

Natural = observable in the natural world. Homosexuality is. Homophobia and anti-gay rhetoric exists in one single species - homo sapiens.


By natural I meant that I was born a male and am still a male. I wasn't referring to homosexuality.
Original post by annaew
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3576041/Quarter-straight-young-women-admit-having-sex-fling-HALF-believe-gender-isn-t-fixed-thanks-celebrities-open-experiences.html

not long ago i made a thread about a poll that showed most teens don't believe in gender and see sexuality and gender as something fluid

last year YouGov made a poll that showed half of young Britain is bisexual and now this new poll with similar results, so what do you guys think and see in your daily life are we heading towards a bisexual gender fluid future for everyone?


I think it's absolute rubbish that "gender" is something people either believe in or not. There is no such thing as gender neutral in my opinion, there is either male or female. And I would expect that most people are heterosexual. I feel like teenagers are perhaps being influenced too much by celebrities or something, but it's just not true- gender exists and you can either be male or female. And no, half the population isn't bisexual, they're just deluded if they think this. I would expect around 10% or less of people to fit into the LGBT+ category.
Being Bisexual myself, I find it very hard to believe half the population is actually Bisexual.

I read a scientific article about how women are more likely to be Bisexual due to genetic and hormonal reasons and how its much rarer in men however to say half the British population is Bisexual is interesting.

I dont have much of an issue with it personally, people should be allowed to identify their sexuality themselves. Who am I to question it.

I personally see a problem with half the population identifying as Bi. I dont see why anyone would. Being gender fluid is a bit more debatable as generally we dont have much scientific prove on people being born trans etc, compared to the amount of studies done for homosexuality.

Either way, I dont care nor should you. Let people identify themselves with whatever they feel comfortable with. With all the problems occurring in today's world I think the labels we give people falls pretty low on that list.
Original post by Trapz99
I think it's absolute rubbish that "gender" is something people either believe in or not. There is no such thing as gender neutral in my opinion, there is either male or female. And I would expect that most people are heterosexual. I feel like teenagers are perhaps being influenced too much by celebrities or something, but it's just not true- gender exists and you can either be male or female. And no, half the population isn't bisexual, they're just deluded if they think this. I would expect around 10% or less of people to fit into the LGBT+ category.


You are describing sex and not gender.
Original post by Trapz99
By natural I meant that I was born a male and am still a male. I wasn't referring to homosexuality.


I didn't say you was. However, ''natural" was rather the wrong word to use for that point but whatever. Understood.
Conservatives in my country used patriotism, religion, family as a slogan during dictatorship.
I guess all three of them will change.
Patriotism and national pride is to be replaced by the world government of United Nations.
Religion of course by atheism/agnosticism,philosophy,science and arts
Family might also change in various more flexible forms such as : x males and y females (x=y=1 will be boring) living together either being sexually attracted to one another or not and either having children or adopting some or not having children at all, perhaps with some common purpose . Perhaps the mean for x+y will be 10 rather than 2.
Tbh I'd like that kind of future.
Original post by Trapz99
I think it's absolute rubbish that "gender" is something people either believe in or not. There is no such thing as gender neutral in my opinion, there is either male or female. And I would expect that most people are heterosexual. I feel like teenagers are perhaps being influenced too much by celebrities or something, but it's just not true- gender exists and you can either be male or female. And no, half the population isn't bisexual, they're just deluded if they think this. I would expect around 10% or less of people to fit into the LGBT+ category.


Sex is male/female. Gender is which side of the traditional masculine/feminine spectrum you fall.
For example, John Cena and Russell Brand are both male. However Brand isn't as traditionally masculine as John Cena, so you wouldn't say they have the same gender. At least that's how I understand it.
Original post by Zargabaath
Sex is male/female. Gender is which side of the traditional masculine/feminine spectrum you fall.
For example, John Cena and Russell Brand are both male. However Brand isn't as traditionally masculine as John Cena, so you wouldn't say they have the same gender. At least that's how I understand it.


This is a perfect way to describe it.
Original post by Zargabaath
Sex is male/female. Gender is which side of the traditional masculine/feminine spectrum you fall.
For example, John Cena and Russell Brand are both male. However Brand isn't as traditionally masculine as John Cena, so you wouldn't say they have the same gender. At least that's how I understand it.


if a dog dresses up as a cat its still a dog
Original post by whitetack
if a dog dresses up as a cat its still a dog


lol k
Original post by whitetack
if a dog dresses up as a cat its still a dog


How is this relevant? You don't understand the difference between biological sex and gender.
Original post by ivybridge
How is this relevant? You don't understand the difference between biological sex and gender.


if an elephant thinks its an eagle doesnt mean it can fly
Original post by whitetack
if an elephant thinks its an eagle doesnt mean it can fly


This does not address my comment but merely reinforces it. You do not understand the difference between biological sex and gender.
Original post by ivybridge
This does not address my comment but merely reinforces it. You do not understand the difference between biological sex and gender.


i do

you just don't accept other peoples points of view, everyone is aloud an opinion

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