Why do leftists love Islam?
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Original post by offhegoes
Which part of what I said are you disagreeing with?
That "violence is not inherent in any religion."
War (kinda violent) is inherent within Islamic theology and always has been (as is peace).
The non Muslim world, the Dar al-Kufr (Land of Disbelief), is a Dar al-Harb (Land of War) according to Islamic theology..
This is sub divided into Dar al-Harb Fi'lan (actual Land of War) and Dar al-Harb Hukman (potential Land of War).
It is not just that violence is inherent in Islam, it is theologically ordained. In the religion's DNA.
Where do you think Islamic State gets its ideas from? The clue is in the name.
Original post by JezWeCan!
That "violence is not inherent in any religion."
War (kinda violent) is inherent within Islamic theology and always has been (as is peace).
The non Muslim world, the Dar al-Kufr (Land of Disbelief), is a Dar al-Harb (Land of War) according to Islamic theology..
This is sub divided into Dar al-Harb Fi'lan (actual Land of War) and Dar al-Harb Hukman (potential Land of War).
It is not just that violence is inherent in Islam, it is theologically ordained. In the religion's DNA.
Where do you think Islamic State gets its ideas from? The clue is in the name.
War (kinda violent) is inherent within Islamic theology and always has been (as is peace).
The non Muslim world, the Dar al-Kufr (Land of Disbelief), is a Dar al-Harb (Land of War) according to Islamic theology..
This is sub divided into Dar al-Harb Fi'lan (actual Land of War) and Dar al-Harb Hukman (potential Land of War).
It is not just that violence is inherent in Islam, it is theologically ordained. In the religion's DNA.
Where do you think Islamic State gets its ideas from? The clue is in the name.
Well yes, I agree that religions generally advocate violence within their scripture. To be honest I don't argue the point with anyone who has distaste for religion because of this.
However my points are more aimed at those who seek to portray Islam as a violent religion, whilst seeing no parallels in Christianity and other major religions.
I maintain that, however great or small you feel religions are as a factor, violence comes from man (or woman).
Original post by offhegoes
Violence is no more inherent to Islam than it is to Christianity, or any other major religion.
In fact, given that religion for many people is subjective rather than prescriptive, I would say that violence is simply not inherent to any religion.
People are peaceful or violent, and they will make their relgion will reflect that.
In fact, given that religion for many people is subjective rather than prescriptive, I would say that violence is simply not inherent to any religion.
People are peaceful or violent, and they will make their relgion will reflect that.
So you are arguing that Muslims are more violent than Christians?
Original post by offhegoes
Violence is no more inherent to Islam than it is to Christianity, or any other major religion.
In fact, given that religion for many people is subjective rather than prescriptive, I would say that violence is simply not inherent to any religion.
People are peaceful or violent, and they will make their relgion will reflect that.
In fact, given that religion for many people is subjective rather than prescriptive, I would say that violence is simply not inherent to any religion.
People are peaceful or violent, and they will make their relgion will reflect that.
Yeah but for a long time now Christianity has not been so crazy with inquisitors and killing and oppressing women especially now.
but take a look at Islamic countries their leaders and religious leaders are a bunch of nutters. saying women should not drive as seat belts could compress their ovaries and make childbirth harder or impossible, what a load of tosh.
A society that is far far more accepting of extreme attitudes towards others is not a tolerant one.
forcing women to cover up, gays to hide away in fear of the punishments. Nonbelievers being harassed.
While we have the pope someone saying that gays are ok and being more progressive and we have islam being very backwards
Original post by inhuman
So you are arguing that Muslims are more violent than Christians?
No. I would say that there are more extremist Islam countries in the world right now than extremist countries of any other religion, but I attribute that to history and geopolitical factors rather than Islam itself.
After all, East Africa has a problem with FGM, but no-one is suggesting that the region is inherently more likely to advocate FGM.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by AperfectBalance
Yeah but for a long time now Christianity has not been so crazy with inquisitors and killing and oppressing women especially now.
but take a look at Islamic countries their leaders and religious leaders are a bunch of nutters. saying women should not drive as seat belts could compress their ovaries and make childbirth harder or impossible, what a load of tosh.
A society that is far far more accepting of extreme attitudes towards others is not a tolerant one.
forcing women to cover up, gays to hide away in fear of the punishments. Nonbelievers being harassed.
While we have the pope someone saying that gays are ok and being more progressive and we have islam being very backwards
but take a look at Islamic countries their leaders and religious leaders are a bunch of nutters. saying women should not drive as seat belts could compress their ovaries and make childbirth harder or impossible, what a load of tosh.
A society that is far far more accepting of extreme attitudes towards others is not a tolerant one.
forcing women to cover up, gays to hide away in fear of the punishments. Nonbelievers being harassed.
While we have the pope someone saying that gays are ok and being more progressive and we have islam being very backwards
I'm not supporting the regimes in these extremist countries. But that the most intolerant Christian countries have managed to shake themselves free of the shackles of religion tied firmly to the state does not infer that Christianity itself is more or less tolerant.
Whilst I'm by no means a historian, it not being my degree, if I was to speculate as to why the West has been more progressive in the last few centuries I would suggest that the relative priviledge enjoyed by these exploitative countries has made facilitated such progression more favourably then centuries of exploitation.
Original post by offhegoes
I'm not supporting the regimes in these extremist countries. But that the most intolerant Christian countries have managed to shake themselves free of the shackles of religion tied firmly to the state does not infer that Christianity itself is more or less tolerant.
Whilst I'm by no means a historian, it not being my degree, if I was to speculate as to why the West has been more progressive in the last few centuries I would suggest that the relative priviledge enjoyed by these exploitative countries has made facilitated such progression more favourably then centuries of exploitation.
Whilst I'm by no means a historian, it not being my degree, if I was to speculate as to why the West has been more progressive in the last few centuries I would suggest that the relative priviledge enjoyed by these exploitative countries has made facilitated such progression more favourably then centuries of exploitation.
does not infer that Christianity itself is more or less tolerant.
In all honesty yes it does mean this. while the bible was not the nicest many good Christians have denounced the bad bits. a religion is defined by what they belie in and now Christianity is far more nice and peaceful than Islam
Original post by offhegoes
No. I would say that there are more extremist Islam countries in the world right now than extremist countries of any other religion, but I attribute that to history and geopolitical factors rather than Islam itself.
After all, East Africa has a problem with FGM, but no-one is suggesting that the region is inherently more likely to advocate FGM.
After all, East Africa has a problem with FGM, but no-one is suggesting that the region is inherently more likely to advocate FGM.
Well I disagree.
I think the reason Islam is so enshrined in their culture and even politics is because it is more aggressive. And it knows that if it allows this to happen it will lose influence and followers.
You cannot separate Islam from this debate and say well the reasons are just historical.
So economically, i'm as left as you can get without being communist. I hate the set of ideas that islam is based upon. I believe the culture is inferior, and that it can not integrate with western culture.
I'm going to take your wording of left as the "Authoritarian left" Those who you may class as Social Justice Warriors, or those that have a large presence in the University Campuses under the guise of a so called 'equality movement,'
Now, the reason they love Islam is because, in their view, the typical Muslim is so oppressed by the west that it embodies the hatred they have towards their own culture. A typical social leftist detest the current society we live in, they see everyone as against them, and blame society for their failures.
Because the Islamic Culture (in the middle east, i'm not talking about your (global) middle class cultural Muslims that you find in the west) is the polar opposite to western society, and clearly at odds with it, them supporting Islam is a way at getting back at the culture they hate. As i mentioned earlier Muslims in the west are now the embodiment of 'oppression'. With the rampant 'islamophobia' that runs through Europe (and rightly so) they have replaced the homosexuals and the blacks as the pinnacle of oppression. As a result, your typical run of the mill SJW is leaps to the defense of any Muslim, to fight of the oppression of the establishment, or the patriarchy, or the overclass, or hell the bourgeoisie.
I'm going to take your wording of left as the "Authoritarian left" Those who you may class as Social Justice Warriors, or those that have a large presence in the University Campuses under the guise of a so called 'equality movement,'
Now, the reason they love Islam is because, in their view, the typical Muslim is so oppressed by the west that it embodies the hatred they have towards their own culture. A typical social leftist detest the current society we live in, they see everyone as against them, and blame society for their failures.
Because the Islamic Culture (in the middle east, i'm not talking about your (global) middle class cultural Muslims that you find in the west) is the polar opposite to western society, and clearly at odds with it, them supporting Islam is a way at getting back at the culture they hate. As i mentioned earlier Muslims in the west are now the embodiment of 'oppression'. With the rampant 'islamophobia' that runs through Europe (and rightly so) they have replaced the homosexuals and the blacks as the pinnacle of oppression. As a result, your typical run of the mill SJW is leaps to the defense of any Muslim, to fight of the oppression of the establishment, or the patriarchy, or the overclass, or hell the bourgeoisie.
Original post by inhuman
Well I disagree.
I think the reason Islam is so enshrined in their culture and even politics is because it is more aggressive. And it knows that if it allows this to happen it will lose influence and followers.
You cannot separate Islam from this debate and say well the reasons are just historical.
I think the reason Islam is so enshrined in their culture and even politics is because it is more aggressive. And it knows that if it allows this to happen it will lose influence and followers.
You cannot separate Islam from this debate and say well the reasons are just historical.
Correlation does not imply causation.
Our opinions on this matter clearly differ and the "truth" is unknowable, so we'll just have to agree to disagree
Original post by AperfectBalance
does not infer that Christianity itself is more or less tolerant.
In all honesty yes it does mean this. while the bible was not the nicest many good Christians have denounced the bad bits. a religion is defined by what they belie in and now Christianity is far more nice and peaceful than Islam
In all honesty yes it does mean this. while the bible was not the nicest many good Christians have denounced the bad bits. a religion is defined by what they belie in and now Christianity is far more nice and peaceful than Islam
As I said to the other poster, correlation does not imply causation. Beyond that, well, we all have our own opinions and the "truth" is unknowable, so to each their own
Original post by offhegoes
Well yes, I agree that religions generally advocate violence within their scripture. To be honest I don't argue the point with anyone who has distaste for religion because of this.
However my points are more aimed at those who seek to portray Islam as a violent religion, whilst seeing no parallels in Christianity and other major religions.
I maintain that, however great or small you feel religions are as a factor, violence comes from man (or woman).
However my points are more aimed at those who seek to portray Islam as a violent religion, whilst seeing no parallels in Christianity and other major religions.
I maintain that, however great or small you feel religions are as a factor, violence comes from man (or woman).
It is true, as you say, that violence comes from men or women and individual Christians, or Buddhists or Muslims ya de ya can be exceptionally violent.
But I put it to you that Islam is a more violent religion theologically than, say, Buddhism. Buddhism is extraordinarily peaceful and devoted to spiritual self improvement. You can't find any violence at all in the Four Noble Truths and Eight Fold Path. The opposite.
Tibetan Buddhists protest against the Chinese occupation of their land not by a suicide bombing which kills their oppressors. But by self immolation. Setting themselves on fire alone.
They are acting in accordance with what their religion teaches. Never to harm others.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by offhegoes
Correlation does not imply causation.
No, of course not, but when there are explaining factors this changes.
Original post by JezWeCan!
It is true, as you say, that violence comes from men or women and individual Christians, or Buddhists or Muslims ya de ya can be exceptionally violent.
But I put it to you that Islam is a more violent religion theologically than, say, Buddhism. Buddhism is extraordinarily peaceful and devoted to spiritual self improvement. You can't find any violence at all in the Four Noble Truths and Eight Fold Path. The opposite.
Tibetan Buddhists protest against the Chinese occupation of their land not by a suicide bombing which kills their oppressors. But by self immolation. Setting themselves on fire alone.
They are acting in accordance with what their religion teaches. Never to harm others.
But I put it to you that Islam is a more violent religion theologically than, say, Buddhism. Buddhism is extraordinarily peaceful and devoted to spiritual self improvement. You can't find any violence at all in the Four Noble Truths and Eight Fold Path. The opposite.
Tibetan Buddhists protest against the Chinese occupation of their land not by a suicide bombing which kills their oppressors. But by self immolation. Setting themselves on fire alone.
They are acting in accordance with what their religion teaches. Never to harm others.
There are bands of Buddhist monks as we speak killing men, women and children on religious grounds. I know little about Buddhist scripture, but Buddhist is clearly not immune from being a justification for violence.
Original post by inhuman
No, of course not, but when there are explaining factors this changes.
We disagree on whether or not there are explaining factors that clearly demonstrate causation. It is not knowable.
Original post by offhegoes
We disagree on whether or not there are explaining factors that clearly demonstrate causation. It is not knowable.
If you dismiss these factors then you might as well dismiss any sort of theory that is not scientifically provable.
Original post by godofwine
I don't think it's right to generalize a group of people like you've done. Most muslims are peaceful and don't behave like that.
Thank You. I agree. That is a 'stereotype'. I am against ISIS & all of its followers. But, I do believe that every religion, minor or major has what you call rotten apples, and these people ruin it for everyone else. People who do such disgusting acts like beheading people are not taught in the religion. That is the total opposite of what Islam teaches. & No, it's not in our culture, its actually nothing to do with it.
And as far as 'gays' go, I believe that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and can live their life as they wish as long as they don't hurt or harm anyone or the environment.
Peace be to you.
Original post by Reachin4TheStars
Thank You. I agree. That is a 'stereotype'. I am against ISIS & all of its followers. But, I do believe that every religion, minor or major has what you call rotten apples, and these people ruin it for everyone else. People who do such disgusting acts like beheading people are not taught in the religion. That is the total opposite of what Islam teaches. & No, it's not in our culture, its actually nothing to do with it.
And as far as 'gays' go, I believe that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and can live their life as they wish as long as they don't hurt or harm anyone or the environment.
Peace be to you.
And as far as 'gays' go, I believe that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and can live their life as they wish as long as they don't hurt or harm anyone or the environment.
Peace be to you.
No. It is not. It says so in the Koran, it is fully justifiable within Islam.
Your book is supposedly the word of God, how can it be that so many follow it in so many different ways? How can it be that you ignore parts of the book? The book is supposed to define what is moral or not.
You by saying that second last sentence are applying your own moral and ethical code. Not the Korans. Maybe you are the one who is not a Muslim?
Original post by inhuman
No. It is not. It says so in the Koran, it is fully justifiable within Islam.
Your book is supposedly the word of God, how can it be that so many follow it in so many different ways? How can it be that you ignore parts of the book? The book is supposed to define what is moral or not.
You by saying that second last sentence are applying your own moral and ethical code. Not the Korans. Maybe you are the one who is not a Muslim?
Your book is supposedly the word of God, how can it be that so many follow it in so many different ways? How can it be that you ignore parts of the book? The book is supposed to define what is moral or not.
You by saying that second last sentence are applying your own moral and ethical code. Not the Korans. Maybe you are the one who is not a Muslim?
Ok so firstly, says what is the Koran?
Secondly, it is the word of God, but people interpret it in ways which are wrong.
Thirdly, the last sentence is meant to be what I think, not what the Koran says anyway?
Ty
Original post by Reachin4TheStars
Ok so firstly, says what is the Koran?
Secondly, it is the word of God, but people interpret it in ways which are wrong.
Thirdly, the last sentence is meant to be what I think, not what the Koran says anyway?
Ty
Secondly, it is the word of God, but people interpret it in ways which are wrong.
Thirdly, the last sentence is meant to be what I think, not what the Koran says anyway?
Ty
That one should kill infidel and gays. That women are inferior. And much more
Who are you to say that their interpretation is wrong? It's not like they are in the minority (the suicide bombers may be, but those holding discriminatory beliefs).
And exactly, your view. But if it is your view, you can't be a Muslim. You shouldn't have your own view. Your view should be that of God, as written down by his prophet.
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