The Remain Argument

To be fair, the Remainers have been painting everyone who even dares to question them as small-minded, bigoted, racist, uneducated, far-right mongs.
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To be fair, the Remainers have been painting everyone who even dares to question them as small-minded, bigoted, racist, uneducated, far-right mongs. It's like a typical Labour Party election campaign. I'm inclined to vote Remain at this stage and I'm almost certainly going to do so come referendum day. But the Remain campaigners haven't covered themselves in glory at all to be frank.

When you see most of the pro Brexit comments on the Internet most people would come to that conclusion. There's plenty of idiots on the IN side, but a far lower percentage I think.

Or like the comments today from Michael Gove.
The right wing of the Conservatives are morphing into UKIP at speed.
It's actually made me respect and like Cameron a lot more, given that he's refused to join much of his party in dancing to UKIP's tune. He's come across very Prime Ministerial.

Because Big corporates don't operate in 'sovereign' states like China, U.S. Etc...

The only way these corporates can be mitigated is in pure isolation (like North Korea) or as part of a large collective-....

Or like the comments today from Michael Gove.
The right wing of the Conservatives are morphing into UKIP at speed.
It's actually made me respect and like Cameron a lot more, given that he's refused to join much of his party in dancing to UKIP's tune. He's come across very Prime Ministerial.

To be fair, the Remainers have been painting everyone who even dares to question them as small-minded, bigoted, racist, uneducated, far-right mongs. It's like a typical Labour Party election campaign. I'm inclined to vote Remain at this stage and I'm almost certainly going to do so come referendum day. But the Remain campaigners haven't covered themselves in glory at all to be frank.

It's more the New Labour centre ground area that exists in the Tory party as well.

It's also true to a large extent. You certainly can be for brexit without being racist etc. But a large number of people are for brexit because it will get rid of the nasty polish people ruining their life.

I don't really like the EU due to its none democratic nature. If we were to leave I would still want to continue letting in European immigrants. I don't think most UKIP voting people think the same as me.

[video="youtube;A8su2vCq950"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8su2vCq950[/video]

Given that the remain campaign has been led firmly by our conservative Prime Minister and our Conservative chancellor and supported by former conservative Prime Minister John Major, I don't think one can say its a labour thing.

The remain campaigners haven't covered themselves in glory no, but the leave campaign have been the far more embarrassing of the two. In the last week we've had Boris compare the EU to Hitler and much of the Brexit supporters support him.

It's more the New Labour centre ground area that exists in the Tory party as well.

It's also true to a large extent. You certainly can be for brexit without being racist etc. But a large number of people are for brexit because it will get rid of the nasty polish people ruining their life.

I don't really like the EU due to its none democratic nature. If we were to leave I would still want to continue letting in European immigrants. I don't think most UKIP voting people think the same as me.

Did you actually read/hear what he said? He said that over the centuries, a number of people - including Napoleon and Hitler - have attempted to unify Europe under their rule, and that one of the reasons they've failed is because there is no real European identity; we don't identify as Europeans. Now which bit of this are you disputing? Because Hitler was indeed trying to form a European superstate, albeit through force rather than the political means of the EU. So everything Boris said was pretty much true.

Hitter was trying to create a large German state.
The European Union wants a collection of states which will not be one large German state

Why even mention hitler? What relevance does it have at all?

Comparing anything to hitler is loaded.

The European Union does not want a collection of states. The European Union's end goal is most definitely one state (or superstate as people have taken to calling it), with centralised political rule. It's the same ultimate goal, just with a different means.

I don't think the actual point was anything to do with Hitler, given as in the same sentence he also compared the EU with Napoleon's attempt to unify Europe under his rule. The point he was making was that people have tried in the past to unify Europe into a single entity, and that one of the reasons they failed was that there is no European identity. That was his point; that we don't feel any loyalty to Europe, certainly not the way we feel loyalty towards our nationalities. His mention of the Nazis was simply in passing, as an example of a group who tried to unify Europe under their rule.

I'm pretty sure Boris would have rather not mentioned Hitler now, given the way people have jumped on it and taken it out of context.

I have now had many debates on the EU and can present the pro-EU argument:

On sovereignty: Hardly any EU laws affect the UK
On sovereignty: EU laws guarantee equalty, fair pay for women, freedom of movement.., we could not be without them

On migration: We can protect our borders, we are not members of Schengen
On migration: All EU citizens have a right to come to the UK just as we have the right to go there, yes refugees will become EU citizens

On the eurozone: The Eurozone will succeed when it achieves political union and shares out the wealth fairly and is about to enter Stage 2 of political union
On the eurozone: The Eurozone will never operate as a single political union and so govern the EU

On defence: We need to be part of the EU so that we can stand up to the large countries such as Russia and guarantee the Baltic, Balkans and Ukraine. The EU Defence force is already being formed
On defence: Dont worry, the UK will never let the EU have an EU army.

Just as you can support brexit and not be a racist, you are aware you can also oppose immigration and not be a racist? You appear to be conflating the two.

It's an absurd comparison. The EU is not a superstate, nor does it want to be. It's a collection of states.
Hitler's plan didn't fail because 'Europe has no identity' - it's because he was a genocidal dictator.

I can see you really stretching to try and prove what he said was technically true. Even if it is, it's a moot point and completely irrelevant. Saying Cameron has two legs and arms like Hitler did, is true. But if someone said it you'd wonder why.

Any mention of Hitler is purposely trying to emotionally effect people by drawing implicit comparisons. What relevance does it have? That because Hitler tried to take over Europe that the EU is a bad idea?

It was an absurd point and his happy clapper supporters of course lap it up.

Hitler's EEC was the direct predecessor of the Common Market - the same people worked on both. See http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=4104861

It's an absurd comparison. The EU is not a superstate, nor does it want to be. It's a collection of states.
Hitler's plan didn't fail because 'Europe has no identity' - it's because he was a genocidal dictator.

I can see you really stretching to try and prove what he said was technically true. Even if it is, it's a moot point and completely irrelevant. Saying Cameron has two legs and arms like Hitler did, is true. But if someone said it you'd wonder why.

Any mention of Hitler is purposely trying to emotionally effect people by drawing implicit comparisons. What relevance does it have? That because Hitler tried to take over Europe that the EU is a bad idea?

It was an absurd point and his happy clapper supporters of course lap it up.

The Corporates are not generally armed, and even when they are - for instance the East India Company - they can be easily tackled by a sovereign nation with the resources of the UK. If the people resist corporate "soft power" such as the bribing of politicians and parties and resist the corporate media the corporations can be controlled with laws.

We mitigate corporates by ensuring that power is in the hands of the people. Sadly this is very difficult but worth the struggle. Corporations are the modern equivalent of the Aristocrats. The Aristocrats were magnates with large estates, mines, quarries etc. that yielded the cash that purchased power and influence, these estates were like corporations without managing boards.

As I understand you, you seem to be saying that we should embrace government by corporations as an inevitable step forward. It is a step backwards.

Yep.

A whole load of people who oppose immigration definitely have xenophobic tendencies though. They don't seem very willing to have a sensible discusion on whether or not immigration is having a net positive or negative impact on the country or whether certain types of immigration or worse or better than others. Or whether we should consider it from the point of view of say a polish person working a low wage job in this country as it pays more for them as the pound is a stronger currency.

I don't think these people can even make a thought experiment where immigration is a good thing. They may not be racist/xenophobic/prejudiced but vindictively punishing people just due to your own sheer ignorance and nastiness essentially has the same outcome.

If say I was against non skilled immigration as I thought it was hurting the english non skilled worker I would not harber a grudge against the polish worker coming over here. I would blame the system that allows them. I would understand why a pole would come over here. I would get spiteful towards the pole and talk of them as if they are a desase. If we were to stop that kind of immigration I would want to know that out country provide support for poorer countries like Poland, which is again something the average UKIP voter doesn't like. They don;t like it when we pay more to the EU than we get back so I can't see them agreeing to giving free money to Poland.