Do you think of homosexuality as effeminate?

I'm very interested in this subject. I'm a gay guy myself, but I'm not by any means effeminate (lisping, mincing around, into musical theatre and so on). I'm not super macho either, or trying to be something I'm not. I (and most of my gay friends) are I suppose just normal guys in terms of mannerisms.

I'm a bit geeky in that I'm interested in technology, ancient history, warfare and military technology. I'm also a bit country-oriented; I ride, I shoot (and no, I mean in the sense of horses and shotguns, not copulation and ejaculation).

When I first came out (and this was a little bit before Grindr became big) I went out to some gay bars and my experience was that the denizens of the gay "scene" tended to be much more effeminate and campy than ordinary gay men I met outside the scene.

On the other hand, I do know some gay guys who are the stereotype of the lisping, musical theatre-oriented queen. I might be going out on a limb here, but my experience is that those sort of gay guys are more often "bottoms" (receptive partners) and that guys like me tend to be either "top" (dominant partner) or "versatile" (willing to switch it up... my personal preference as it's infinitely more novel and there's a sense of equality between the two guys).

I also find the homosexual couplings of the ancient world quite interesting; in Roman culture it seems it was quite normal for a man to be attracted to both women and male youths (I guess 15 to about 20). Some of the accounts of the Punic Wars I read was that when one of these cities was sacked, the soldiers fought each other over the most beautiful women and the most comely lads. I can't remember which historian it was (Livy, Tacitus, one of them) mentioned both in the same breath, with no apparent sense of soldierly preference for one or the other. The Romans didn't care what a freeborn male citizen did with his slaves or prostitutes, male or female, as long as he didn't let himself be penetrated. The Greeks did seem to allow some degree of male love between freeborn male citizens (probably too long a subject to get into here)

So I've wondered is it possible that, biologically, there are two types of gay men? There are gay men who are more like me, who are attracted to other guys and have broadly the same mindset as heterosexual men in terms of mannerism, mindset and so on. And then there is a second category of gay man who perhaps has a more female mindset, hence the effeminate behaviour.

Finally, I am certain that effeminate behaviour among gay men is becoming rarer (it seems more common among older gay men); in the old days to meet other gay men you had to go through the gay scene, which by virtue of being located in and a part of the entertainment industry (clubs, drag queens, rent boys) encouraged a more effeminate group behaviour which people would adopt due to peer pressure. But in the modern day where gay men can meet each other through the internet they can do so according to common interests and without that pressure (for example, the "gaybros" subreddit for gay guys who are into sport, hunting, fishing, shooting etc).

What do you think?

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Reply 1

Sortient

I don't think that homosexuality and being effeminate depend on one another. I'm a straight guy and I'm certainly not the most... masculine person ever. I'm by no means lispy and I don't prance around or anything but there are certainly gay guys I know that are way more masculine than I am.

So no, I don't think of homosexuality as effeminate. You can be any combination of the two.

Reply 2

loveleest

I don't think of being gay as being effeminate, I believe that whatever your sexuality is, you can be feminine or masculine. But I can sort of understand why people would link being gay with being feminine although that isn't particularly the case. I actually only know one gay person, personally so it's quite hard to say whether or not they are mostly feminine or not.

Reply 3

thefatone

Original post by Thutmose-III

What do you think?

I think the word gay comes up 17 times in your post

Reply 4

ODES_PDES

Original post by thefatone

I think the word gay comes up 17 times in your post

You actually read it all?

Reply 5

Thutmose-III

Original post by thefatone

I think the word gay comes up 17 times in your post

Yes, that seems entirely expected given the subject matter..?

Reply 6

Thutmose-III

Original post by ODES_PDES

You actually read it all?

Would it comport more to your level of comprehension if I shortened it to 140 characters? (I keed, your comment was funny; gemmed)

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 7

Thutmose-III

Original post by Sortient

That's very true. I know a ballet dancer and he's 100% straight (in fact, ballet dancers tend to be really fit and strong, he also plays rugby). But he also has a tinge of that stage diva thing going on. So I suppose it shows that you can have an interesting mix of both in the one person regardless of sexuality

Reply 8

thefatone

Original post by ODES_PDES

You actually read it all?

haha
the control f function does wonders

Original post by Thutmose-III

Yes, that seems entirely expected given the subject matter..?

of course but i'm known for giving anti advice/ bad or none at all :/ ...

i guess i'll leave now :getmecoat:

Not as a rule.

Original post by thefatone

i guess i'll leave now :getmecoat:

No need to flounce out like a diva :wink:

Do you know any gay guys? What are they like?

Reply 11

thefatone

Original post by Thutmose-III

No need to flounce out like a diva :wink:

Do you know any gay guys? What are they like?

I'm not a man yet ....
But i do have a friend who's secretly gay, only friend as far as i know has told me he's gay.
He seems like a pretty normal person, gay doesn't matter to me, you're my friend and you're still gonna be a friend nothing changes about that fact you're my friend. So ya nothing out of the ordinary when i'm around my friend, seems pretty relaxed most of the time.

Reply 12

username1391301

Isn't it more to do with the media and how they portray what it is to be Gay? On the other hand you have plenty of men who are camp, but married to a woman. I don't particularly think the two are mixed.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 13

Thutmose-III

Original post by thefatone

I'm not a man yet ....

But i do have a friend who's secretly gay, only friend as far as i know has told me he's gay.
He seems like a pretty normal person, gay doesn't matter to me, you're my friend and you're still gonna be a friend nothing changes about that fact you're my friend. So ya nothing out of the ordinary when i'm around my friend, seems pretty relaxed most of the time.

Cool. That's pretty much what most gay people I know are like. Not effeminate or lispy or drama queens, just normal dudes who happen to like other dudes

Reply 14

Thutmose-III

Original post by Hachik0

Very true, sometimes it does irritate me that most of the gay men on TV are hyper-camp old queens who can make it seem that all gay men are like that. The one that comes particularly to mind is that "Chatty Man" bloke.

It pushes the idea that gay men are kind-of waspish and cruel, obsessed with making inappropriate sexual comments and over-sharing, that kind of thing. On the other hand, TV execs know that camp attracts eyeballs and advertisers. Your average hetero housewife in Chipping Sodbury finds it all so novel and a bit risque. There is a commercial logic to it.

But I find it unsettling that it does perpetuate the idea that all gay men just want to get dressed up in slap and drag and get fcked by ten sailors. Most gay guys are pretty average and boring, like most men everywhere.

Reply 15

thefatone

Original post by Thutmose-III

That comment confuses me. You're not a man yet because you're still a boy, or you're not a man yet because you're transitioning? Ultimately not that important, I'm just curious.

When I said "Do you know any gay guys" I mean do you know any gay males

Cool. That's pretty much what most gay people I know are like. Not effeminate or lispy or drama queens, just normal dudes who happen to like other dudes

Yea i don't understand ppl sometimes, i mean what's wrong with gay's???? It doesn't make any sense to me, something so small as sexual preference means ppl are scared of you or just avoid you? why? gay ppl are pretty much the same as any other person(besides sexual preference).

Reply 16

username1391301

Original post by Thutmose-III

That 'bloke' would be Alan Carr! I find him funny to be honest, maybe it's more his personality than being camp. Perhaps I'm just open minded and couldn't really care less; not saying you're not, it just doesn't bother me like it does some guys.

Reply 17

Thutmose-III

Original post by Hachik0

Do you mind if I ask are you straight? I think it would probably bother straight people less. But when you're gay, and it feels like your people have been the butt of that joke for centuries (at best! Often when not being laughed at we were being executed, and even to this day that is still happening in some parts of the world) then it can feel much more like a retrograde step and a depiction that takes us backwards.

Of course it's true there are effeminate gay men, but my experience is that they are in the minority. And TV doesn't have a responsibility to make every gay TV personality or every gay character in a TV show a model and a pattern of masculine respectability. On the other hand, I wouldn't mind if we did see a bit more of that masculine respectability.

I suppose the sort of role models I see are people like EJ Coleman who is the class president at the US military academy at West Point (the first cadet at West Point to be both Class President and First Captain since the famous US general Pershing) and on top of that had the courage to come out at West Point.

Or people like Eric Fanning, who is the US Secretary of the Army (the highest civilian position in the US Army, just under the US Secretary of Defence). Those are the kind of role models I'd like young gay guys to see; patriotic, masculine, respectable. There are many other such people serving in the intelligence community, the armed forces, in high positions of responsibility in government.

These are the kind of things I'd want my son (if I have one) to aspire to, whether gay or straight. And if he was gay, I'd prefer he was respectable, disciplined, patriotic not a show-tunes pop-culture obsessed flake. How will gay people know that they can aspire to make a real contribution to their society if most of the role models they see are basically clowns and the butt of a joke?

Edit: Another cool role model, in my opinion, are these two guys; they're both US army officers and they got married at West Point. One day they were in New York and some homophobic idiot started spewing abuse at them. They kicked his butt. I have to confess a certain degree of satisfaction thinking that gay soldiers in the US, British and Australian armies will be out there in the Middle East liquidating ISIS fascists. He said;

We refuse to be victims and are thankful we can defend ourselves

And I completely agree with that sentiment. Gay people have come so far in Western civilisation, the trend is ever towards more integration, towards it being a complete non-issue. I hope the media will start to pick up on it because general society is already way ahead of the media on that score

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 18

George VI

I don't think sexuality determines it, but I think some people give in to social pressure and act that way because it is expected of them, there are some guys who are really feminine and more often than not they are also gay.

Reply 19

Thutmose-III

Original post by George VI

I don't think sexuality determines it, but I think some people give in to social pressure and act that way because it is expected of them

This is true. There's a phenomenon of where a young gay guy first comes out, sometimes his behaviour completely changes and he goes from being completely normal and interested in masculine activities to pursuing more effeminate interests and behaving in a more effeminate way.

I think you hit the nail on the head; some newly-minted gay guys (for want of a better term) think that this is what being gay means and so they modify their behaviour (completely unnecessarily) as they believe that is what is expected and in order to feel like they are a part of the gay community and to fit in. My observation is that this phenomenon is decreasing as more young gay guys realise they do not have to ape the mannerisms and behaviour of the stereotypical gay men of the old days.

there are some guys who are really feminine and more often than not they are also gay.

That's also true. There's no question in my mind that there is a subset of gay men who are genuinely and naturally effeminate. But I do wonder whether the biological/environmental/psychological (whatever it is) basis of their homosexuality and effeminacy actually comes from a different basis than what made me and most of my gay mates homosexual. In other words, the end effect is the same (we are dudes who fancy other dudes) but the cause of that is different. In their case, whatever caused their sexuality also caused an effeminacy which, for whatever reason, didn't effect other gay men