The Remain Argument

Then that is not the basis for a debate, which is what you are trying to engage in. You are also claiming that there can be rationality in these decisions, but you're now saying that rationality doesn't matter - no one has to prove anything.

I'm not sure where you are getting this from. The 12-starred flag dates from the time when there were actually 12 member states (1986). The 12 stars also appear on the coins and bank notes of the eurozone states. I don't see how this can have been an aim of the 2004 Constitution when the symbols obviously pre-date that treaty.

This article tells how it was first designed in 1955 and adopted by the EEC in 1985:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Europe

There are few assumptions in your question. The main one is that import/export would remain the same. Another significant assumption is that tariffs would be balanced. Let's say that is the case, and that, magically more money flows into government coffers.

This seems like a win, doesn't it?

How about this: if we face tariffs exporting to the EU then UK manufacturers/service providers will find it more difficult to compete. If there are tariffs on imports then importers will have higher costs, and those costs will be passed on to consumers (it doesn't seem likely that UK production of goods will become suddenly cheaper).

Oh, and of course there is more paperwork, and that costs money too.

These two entities aren't arms of government, and I think it is unlikely that they are going to get any real benefit from government receiving more in tariffs.

This just such nonsense. Germany believed that it had territorial claims on these areas, stemming from the settlement in the Treaty of Versailles (which the Germans obviously did not like).

The origins of the ECSC is that, at that time (immediately after the second world war), coal and steel were national security issues, and it was important to see those industries recover and secure investment. Anything else you make of it is just an after the fact conspiracy theory.

You really need a history lesson, or two. The Nazis were a German nationalist movement, born out of dissatisfaction of the territorial losses and reparations imposed on Germany from its defeat in the First World War (encoded in the Treaty of Versailles). Although there were other fascist movements in Europe there were no Nazi offshoots taking control across the continent (I'm sure there were individuals across Europe who had shared ideas about the "Aryan" people).

The reason the Second World War started was due to Germany making those territorial claims real in invading Northern Czechoslovakia and then Poland. By the time the UK declared war Hitler was well on his way to invading Belgium, Netherlands and Luxembourg and dodging the Maginot Line into France.

Can you show us where this aim is laid-out, in EU legislation?

It is mostly the same people. The reason they aren't out there shouting about it is that there would be a huge outcry. You can see Farage playing the game on this issue, telling the "Commonwealth" immigrants that the EU is unfair on them and their families because they find it hard to get visas, while EU citizens just come here as they like.

I've seen "Commonwealth" immigrants on the TV complaining about EU immigrants. When the host says, "but surely they are in the same position as you and your family?" the former says "No, we came here to work!".

What do the EU immigrants supposedly coming here stealing our jobs come here to do!? They can't be not working and stealing our jobs can they?

My point is not that the claims of EU supporters are honest or in accordance with reality; quite the contrary.

You are not debating anything with me to be very honest…

Yes and this also applies the other way - substitution of UK exports to the EU by internal consumption and exports to non-EU states will also reduce the tariffs paid to the EU.

I am not arguing that trade wars are good. I am saying that tariffs paid to the UK exchequer counterbalance the costs you identified, costs it seems you were planning to double count. Increasing the funding of the UK government does benefit people within the UK; not necessarily the same people, but that is beside the point.

I can't even be arsed to prod at your straw man.

The German occupation of N.France, Netherlands and Belgium meant that the coal and steel industry was integrated into the German Steel Konzern…

National Socialism had spread across Europe and the world, the Germans, Italians, Japanese, Spanish, Yugoslavs (at first), Vichy French, Bulgarians, Austrians, Argentines were all National Socialists by choice. Hitler greatly admires Mussolini in "Mein Kampf" for having founded the idea.

The focus in the Cold War on WWII being solely a German problem was because Germany was the pre-eminent military power in the Axis and because the Allies were petrified that the other ex-Axis States would become communist so invented the myth that they had not been the enemy.

BTW, Britain declared war on 3rd Sept 1939 and the German invasion in the West of Europe did not happen until 10th May 1940.

I couldn't give you the specific article, but it's certainly in the spirit of the Maastricht treaty.

It has also been widely heralded amongst other leaders of EU countries, notably Angela Merkel, who said:

“We need more Europe, we need not only a monetary union, but we also need a so-called fiscal union, in other words more joint budget policy..... And we need most of all a political union – that means we need to gradually give competencies to Europe and give Europe control,"

Further, the fact that we've been granted an opt-out to 'ever closer union' makes pretty obvious that ever closer union is on the agenda for the rest of the EU.

the process of creating an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe, in which decisions are taken as openly as possible and as closely as possible to the citizen

But I think you're conflating two different issues. By and large, I don't think people have a problem with EU migrants coming to Britain, getting jobs and working. I could be wrong, but it's not something I've come across. The issue people raise is that because these people are from countries where pay is so much lower, they are willing to work for lower wages when they come to Britain - very often illegally low wages. This puts downwards pressure on the wages paid for low-skilled work.

But this isn't even the main issue people have with the EU, I don't think. I can certainly say that my desire to leave has nothing to do with some Polish immigrants working in a factory.

My desire to leave is based on two factors:

1) It has been made fairly clear that further EU integration is on the agenda. Britain's opt-out means that we will be on the periphery of this integration, and so there will come a point where we have an EU-bloc formed from the continental countries, and Britain. Britain will then be politically dominated by this bloc, which will inevitably be to our detriment. You could make the argument that Britain would be better off inside an EU-bloc than independant (I personally disagree, but I can understand why someone would support such an arrangement), but there is no way that a Britain on the outskirts of such a bloc will be a success. We'll still be held accountable to all the EU legislation, but have almost no power to influence it. The opt-out of further union is pretty much the worst of both worlds.

2) There are a whole host of disasters sweeping the EU, which will hit home in the next decade or so, which currently have no solution in the offing. The migrant crisis is going to cause chaos, a rising tide of left and right wing populists are sweeping Europe, the Greece problem is being swept under the rug without any attempt to solve it and the Mediterranean and French economies are teetering. Add to this an EU political class which is completely out of touch with the sentiment on the ground, and I don't think it's pessimistic to say that the EU will be rocked by more disasters over the coming decade or two. So I think we should leave now, whilst we can avoid the worst of it. We're one of two properly functioning economies in the EU, and I don't want to be dragged into the muck with those countries who don't function so effectively .

Then please show some references that show that we were all lied to about the flag. That was your point, right?

Exports elsewhere are just tariffs paid elsewhere.



I'm not double counting, I am indicating that a lot of costs start accruing - something that you don't seem to be disputing.

My reference is my recollection of the debate. Finding archived news articles is difficult and time consuming, and this is not an academic discussion.

As if, prior to the EU, there was no equality, fairness, or freedom, for the people of the UK, and populations outside the EU live in the dark ages

..and then be free to come as and when. We, the people of this country, feel that we have more than enough Third world/Muslim migrants as it is

1) The Eurozone will stack when French/Italian banking crisis hits and/or South European nations rise up and revolt against crippling austerity

2) We will never be part of any such political union

3) The North Euroepan nations (Germany, in particular) will never share out the wealth with nations they hold in utter contempt (unfortunately many think of the Greeks as corrupt, lazy, and wasteful peasants)

Hell no. The EU is a major part of the problem regarding the Ukrainian conflict. You lack depth and impartiality in your understanding of complex matters of international relations and strategy

Which should be of grave concern to everyone. When was the last time Europeans tried to unite the continent under one flag? Clue: middle of the 20th century. And how did that work out?

The UK can't stop it, and it can scarcely stop its own armed forces being 'harmonised' and being sucked into 'progressive common defence policy'

Correct

Yup, through a combination of #ProjectFear and #StatusQuo apathy/myopia. They're absolute scoundrels/muppets (delete as appropriate)

For the other (cogent, referenced) side of the debate, see this thread