64% of TSR want to remain in the EU... share your vote

https://www.facebook.com/leaveeuofficial/videos/956959694402272/

Original post by jonny politic

I am voting out, as part of my studies and research we have grown slower in than we did in the years after the WWII, lost almost £1.2 Trillion in GDP since we have been in the EU.

The other for me is Free Movement, nice concept but does not work for economies that are not aligned. Britain is already the most over populated country and house prices are unaffordable. If they drop 18% in worst case scenario that is good for us students.

Also I think the EU is helping keep Africa poorer, they have products they could be selling to us, but the EU puts up so many barriers to protect EU producers that prices go up and Africa cannot sell into us. Africa and the World should be our business and concern, not just the small European part of it...

Last thing that concerns me is we keep claiming we will lose EU funding, but is this not our taxes in the first place.. we pay in lose an admin fee than get slightly less back... makes no sense..... But then when I looked at the EU transparency Website, USA, Canada and Australia got £2.2 Billion in science funding in 2014, so we don't need to be in to get it...

Funny thing is on the house prices they are saying they will be stagnant rather than drop.

The argument is that they would have gone up otherwise.

Well two things if your house price goes up so does everyone else's so if your buying a new house it's in line with yours.

If your entering the market it's more affordable it's only affecting people who are downsizing as in the old or the amount of money your kids get if you die.

I'd say the old have enjoyed enough of a free ride on these massive increases in prices

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Reply 304

Frazerc

Reply 305

Jammy Duel

https://www.facebook.com/leaveeuofficial/videos/956959694402272/

Original post by Frazerc

More importantly, Boris was doing doughnuts earlier. None of the remain campaign are cool enough to do that.

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Reply 306

aeroline1999

Original post by CleverSquirrel

To be honest, leaving the EU makes more sense than staying in, we spend soo much for just staying the EU alone, there more benefits for leaving than staying in :yep:

What are the benefits to leaving other than control over our borders and not having to adopt some of Europe's looney laws.

If we leave we will be worse off. They get to negotiate a leaving deal without us so they could come up with something terrible, like we still have to pay £9bn a year or we have to still allow fishing rights or give over some of our oil. It could be like a modern day treaty of Versailles!

Also we'd lose free trade with Europe, be less secure, become a tiny insignificant country on the edge of a European superstate over which we have zero control and we might be forced to do what they want anyway because of their massive power and influence.

We could lose lots of jobs in finance, manufacturing etc. HSBC and AIRBUS already said they'd move operations away if we leave. Others would follow suit. We are better together, just like we were with Scotland. Unity is strength, isolation and independence is weakness. We need Europe and they need us. Its just we don't appreciate it.

I think if we leave Europe the only way UK will maintain its strength would be to join another major union. Like a union of ex common wealth countries or join America or something. Unity is the way the worlds going and we can't shy away from that.

And think about all the good European membership has done. We get so much investment from Europe, our farmers get subsidies from Europe, we get to negotiate with America and China as equals, etc etc.

Reply 307

salty670

6

who in their right mind would vote to stay in the EU

Reply 308

username1148663

http://www.leave.eu/en/the-facts/on-global-influence

Original post by salty670

who in their right mind would vote to stay in the EU

Apparently 60% of voters unfortunately

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Reply 309

plstudent

2

Original post by aeroline1999

What are the benefits to leaving other than control over our borders and not having to adopt some of Europe's looney laws.If we leave we will be worse off. They get to negotiate a leaving deal without us so they could come up with something terrible, like we still have to pay £9bn a year or we have to still allow fishing rights or give over some of our oil. It could be like a modern day treaty of Versailles!Also we'd lose free trade with Europe, be less secure, become a tiny insignificant country on the edge of a European superstate over which we have zero control and we might be forced to do what they want anyway because of their massive power and influence.We could lose lots of jobs in finance, manufacturing etc. HSBC and AIRBUS already said they'd move operations away if we leave. Others would follow suit. We are better together, just like we were with Scotland. Unity is strength, isolation and independence is weakness. We need Europe and they need us. Its just we don't appreciate it.I think if we leave Europe the only way UK will maintain its strength would be to join another major union. Like a union of ex common wealth countries or join America or something. Unity is the way the worlds going and we can't shy away from that.And think about all the good European membership has done. We get so much investment from Europe, our farmers get subsidies from Europe, we get to negotiate with America and China as equals, etc etc.

Wow I seriously hope you are being ironical. Has Dave convinced you there are monsters under your pillow too? I hope you can sleep well at night.

Original post by aeroline1999

What are the benefits to leaving other than control over our borders and not having to adopt some of Europe's looney laws.If we leave we will be worse off.

Taking back control over the country. It is not "same" laws, MOST laws come now from the EU. Imagine what it will be like in the future. The EU has only kept increasing its power and only a fool would think they would go in a different direction. I quote Juncker, president of the commission, himself:

Original post by aeroline1999

Also we'd lose free trade with Europe,

The EU buys more from the UK than vice versa. Also:

11. If we voted to leave would we be obliged to accept free movement in order to have free trade with the EU?Not necessarily. Canada and the EU have recently agreed a free trade agreement which does not entail free movement of EU citizens to Canada. See here

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/eu-referendum#

Original post by aeroline1999

become a tiny insignificant country on the edge of a European superstate over which we have zero control and we might be forced to do what they want anyway because of their massive power and influence.

This is laughable. The EU is nowhere near as powerful as some like to pretend. In fact, one of its many presidents is now saying Brexit could be the beginning of the end for the EU:

http://www.politico.eu/article/martin-schulz-brexit-could-trigger-implosion-of-eu/

Another of their presidents is saying a superstate is a dream that should be abandoned:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3576273/Brexit-trigger-collapse-fragile-EU-Analysts-say-small-crisis-threaten-bloc-s-future-suffered-damage-migrant-crisis.html

The UK has very little say in the EU as it is today, given its status as a nuclear power and 5th largest economy in the world. Consider:

Leaving the EU would give the UK more global influence, not less

•

With less than a 10% share of the vote in the EU legislatures, the UK’s ability to influence EU policy is limited. An independent UK would therefore exert greater international influence.

•

The UK’s overall diplomatic reach would remain strong – we would continue to be a major contributor to NATO, and would hold a permanent seat at the UN Security Council (in addition to our fundamental roles in the OECD, the G8, the G20, the P5, and the Commonwealth).

•

Leaving the EU would give Britain its own seat at the World Trade Organisation rather than being represented by the EU.

Original post by Davij038

All credible economists and economic institutions predict immediate short term hit to our economy perhaps leading to a recession

That is simply not true. That there might be a short term hit is not too difficult to see, but not all "credible economists" have said that it can lead to a recession.

As an example:

http://www.economistsforbrexit.co.uk

Also, 300 business leaders back Brexit:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/15/eu-referendum-more-than-300-business-leaders-back-a-brexit/

Original post by Davij038

EU expansion has been curtailed for the next five years- And Turkey txt going to join - they don't want to and they wouldn't be accepted even if they did meet all the requirements (since 1975 they've met 3/20)

Turkey is officially in the process of joining the EU. What the Turkish people want or don't want hasn't been established yet as polls are contradictory and there has been no referendum on the issue. However, their current government, which they elected, not only wants to join but is also constantly seeking to advance the process of accession. Furthermore, poor countries are often kind on joining the EU.

Worth noting is that the UK is sending 1,8bn to Turkey and other Eastern countries to facilitate their accession.

•

he Government’s position to support these countries’ membership bids. The UK government has agreed to pay £1.2 billion under the EU’s Instrument for Pre-Accession Assistance to these countries between 2014 and 2020, or £169.5 million per year. This is half the annual NHS Cancer Drugs Fund.

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The EU Commission describes this as an ‘investment in the future of the EU’, which ‘creates incentives for EU future members’.

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In addition, the UK will pay Turkey a further £640 million as part of the recent EU-Turkey deal designed to facilitate Turkish accession to the EU.

•

Combining commitments under the Instrument for Pre-Accession Assistance and obligations to Turkey under the recent deal, the UK’s total payments to candidate countries will be £1.8 billion. The EU as a whole will be paying €17.7 billion to candidate countries to join the EU.

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/uk_pays_1_8_billion_to_help_alba nia_and_turkey_join_the_eu

Cameron can't be trusted on Turkey at all 1)because he will soon have no power at all to stop an accession as he has promised to step down before the end of his term 2)because he himself has supported Turkish accession happening "as soon as possible".

Also:
[video="youtube;A8su2vCq950"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8su2vCq950[/video]

Turkey is, of course, only one country with many other poor countries already in the EU or looking to join.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 310

@plstudent

Turkey applied to join the EU IIRC since 1975 and haven't gotten anywhere, and that was when we didn't have the likes of Hungary in the EU who would shoot down the idea before you can say Orban.

The two largest EU parties and their presidents Juncker and Schulz have vowed not to let them in.

As you say Cameron is stepping down as leader, hopefully his replacement will be far cooler to Turkish membership. But that's down to who the UK elects.

I readily agree that we will probably see at least one Balkan state join the EU by 2021 but if the Migrant Crisis and the Euro are stable then I see no issue with this. Turkish accession to the EU is of course possible but highly unlikely - I'd say Ireland is more likely to rejoin the UK at present. (Very unlikely )

Reply 311

Original post by Jammy Duel

More importantly, Boris was doing doughnuts earlier. None of the remain campaign are cool enough to do that.
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Boris is certainly good at going in circles

Reply 312

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-europe-migrants-germany-turkey-idUKKCN0SC08020151018

@plstudent

Okay all credible economists bar eight.

As for the business for Britain site, bar wetherspoons have you ever heard of most of those companies?

From businesses Big and small there's no comparison

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endorsements_in_the_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum,_2016

Reply 313

plstudent

2

Original post by Davij038

@plstudent
The two largest EU parties and their presidents Juncker and Schulz have vowed not to let them in.

Schulz: “I always supported Turkey’s EU accession,”

https://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/juncker-and-schulz-say-no-to-turkey-in-last-tv-duel/

Juncker is president of the Commission, here is what they said recently about Turkish accession:

Spoiler

https://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/juncker-and-schulz-say-no-to-turkey-in-last-tv-duel/

Moreover, Juncker can be easily classified as an EU expansion fanatic

Politicians play a different tune to get elected, saying "they are not ready yet", but of course that tune can change very quickly when they have nothing to lose. Take for example Merkel, who is arguably the most influential politician in the EU.

Spoiler

I readily agree that we will probably see at least one Balkan state join the EU by 2021 but if the Migrant Crisis and the Euro are stable then I see no issue with this.

Indeed, Turkey is only one single country and possibly the least qualified at the moment, so it would be far from fair to judge the possibility of accession of other Eastern countries based on Turkey's chances..

Like you say, if you don't mind an increase in migration then you may not care about this, but I see a huge contradiction from Tory voters who voted for a platform to reduce net migration "to the tens of thousands" while supporting an open border with the EU which makes it effectively impossible. Cameron is a hypocrite who works through deception.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 314

Original post by plstudent

Schulz: “I always supported Turkey’s EU accession,”

https://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/juncker-and-schulz-say-no-to-turkey-in-last-tv-duel/

Your selective quote ignores the next passage

“I always supported Turkey’s EU accession,” acknowledged Martin Schulz, the European socialist candidate.“But at the moment the country is dramatically distancing itself from the EU’s democratic values,” he added in reference to the government’s attempts at gagging Twitter, the US-based social media platform.>> Read: EU leaders tell Turkey: gagging Twitter is unacceptableCountries that ban Twitter-use are not fit for EU-accession, was the resounding position voiced by the two top candidates from Europe’s biggest EU political groups during a final debate on Tuesday (20 May).

That's kind of a big distinction.

Juncker is president of the Commission, here is what they said recently about Turkish accession:

Spoiler

If Turkey was to be fully compatible and thus become a modern liberal democracy then I see no reason why it shouldn't be allowed. I cannot see that happening any time soon.

Moreover, Juncker can be easily classified as an EU expansion fanatic

That's got nothing to do with EU expansion, let alone Turkey.

Politicians play a different tune to get elected, saying "they are not ready yet", but of course that tune can change very quickly when they have nothing to lose. Take for example Merkel, who is arguably the most influential politician in the EU.

Spoiler

That's also called, being diplomatic, especially when needing Turkey to take in =refugees, I've gone off of Merkel recently but your point is nonsensical. Russia Joining the EU is an open ended issue that doesn't mean its going to happen.

Indeed, Turkey is only one single country and possibly the least qualified at the moment, so it would be far from fair to judge the possibility of accession of other Eastern countries based on Turkey's chances..

I could be being dense but that doesn't make sense to me.

Like you say, if you don't mind an increase in migration then you may not care about this, but I see a huge contradiction from Tory voters who voted for a platform to reduce net migration "to the tens of thousands" while supporting an open border with the EU which makes it effectively impossible. Cameron is a hypocrite who works through deception.

It was a stupid and irresponsible thing to sign up to. But Cameron did achieve some EU welfare reform so that could reduce numbers.

Reply 315

plstudent

2

Original post by Davij038

Your selective quote ignores the next passage

“I always supported Turkey’s EU accession,” acknowledged Martin Schulz, the European socialist candidate.“But at the moment the country is dramatically distancing itself from the EU’s democratic values,” he added in reference to the government’s attempts at gagging Twitter, the US-based social media platform.>> Read: EU leaders tell Turkey: gagging Twitter is unacceptableCountries that ban Twitter-use are not fit for EU-accession, was the resounding position voiced by the two top candidates from Europe’s biggest EU political groups during a final debate on Tuesday (20 May).

That's kind of a big distinction.

Well, you said that they vowed not to let them in. I proved that it is false and that they indeed like the idea.

Also, I put in bold the key word up there: "candidates" i.e. individuals that need to get elected by telling people what they want to hear.

Original post by Davij038

If Turkey was to be fully compatible and thus become a modern liberal democracy then I see no reason why it shouldn't be allowed. I cannot see that happening any time soon.

It depends on how you define soon and on how big the political push is at the moment.

Original post by Davij038

That's also called, being diplomatic, especially when needing Turkey to take in =refugees, I've gone off of Merkel recently but your point is nonsensical. Russia Joining the EU is an open ended issue that doesn't mean its going to happen.

There was no need to say that in order to be diplomatic. If she says Turkey could join the EU, I take it at face value.

Also, the whole deal was completely unnecessary and could have been solved much more easily by shipping the migrants back, building fences, toughening rules for asylum, etc. The reason many of those migrants migrated in the first place is because of the EU asylum loopholes and Schengen.

[video="youtube;_AzBXNDNBtQ"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AzBXNDNBtQ[/video]

Original post by Davij038

That's got nothing to do with EU expansion, let alone Turkey.

I meant expansion in a wider sense, as in increasing in power. Juncker clearly plans to stop at nothing to make the EU ever more overreaching and powerful, and he has no shame in admitting it either. Would this guy, of all people, be seriously opposed to Turkish accession? I don't buy it.

Original post by Davij038

It was a stupid and irresponsible thing to sign up to. But Cameron did achieve some EU welfare reform so that could reduce numbers.

"Could" is a generous word, given that not even the former Commission president Barroso can pretend it would make a difference.

[video]https://youtu.be/299zIEm8Q64?t=2m17s[/video]

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 316

Original post by plstudent

Well, you said that they vowed not to let them in. I proved that it is false and that they indeed like the idea.

Also, I put in bold the key word up there: "candidates" i.e. individuals that need to get elected by telling people what they want to hear.

Sorry that's just disingenuous on your part. They do like the idea of Turkey joining you are correct. They do not however like it joining at present or whilst it continues to be an authoritarian state. As such, they were right to say and I have no reason to doubt them that Turkish membership would be blocked by them.

This whole case is a last desperate scare tactic by a losing Vote Leave who know full well that Turkey will not be joining in the near future.

It depends on how you define soon and on how big the political push is at the moment.

I've already said- the EU cannot control what Turkey does so it is as and when Turkey gets itself together. Even then- It will probably be vetoed by Hungary, Austraia, Germany et al.

There was no need to say that in order to be diplomatic. If she says Turkey could join the EU, I take it at face value.

See above. Theoretically Turkey can join the EU. (Also its worth dangling a carrot to an authoritarian Turkey if it means they are more likely to reform which, even if it doesnt join the EU would be good for everyone. )

Also, the whole deal was completely unnecessary and could have been solved much more easily by shipping the migrants back, building fences, toughening rules for asylum, etc. The reason many of those migrants migrated in the first place is because of the EU asylum loopholes and Schengen

I meant expansion in a wider sense, as in increasing in power. Juncker clearly plans to stop at nothing to make the EU ever more overreaching and powerful, and he has no shame in admitting it either.

.

Moving the goal posts slightly...

Would this guy, of all people, be seriously opposed to Turkish accession? I don't buy it.

See previous points. If you mean why wouldn't he be opposed to Turkish accession in the present, there are a number of reasons.

Firstly, because he knows he would lose as it would come to a veto and that it is widely unpopular throughout Europe. Plus it doesn't support his (And his parties) previous statements for what the EU should be about. Both things would hugely damage his credibility and weaken an already stretched EU.

Personally, I have no reason to doubt that Juncker and Schulz were sincere in being against Turkish accession to the EU whilst it remains authoritarian.

"Could" is a generous word, given that not even the former Commission president Barroso can pretend it would make a difference.

But Cameron isn't Barrosso and may think it will work, however mistaken he may be in that case.

Reply 317

Jammy Duel

If turkey is distancing itself fromthe EU democratic position does that mean that they're complaining it's becoming more democratic?

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Reply 318

aeroline1999