"Feminism is useless in the first world"
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Original post by joecphillips
Look at the nations where the number is around equal
Mongolia (49% female researchers), Argentina (53%) Kazakhstan (52%)
So no it isn't all because of biology it is down to the fact that when presented with the choice they tend to decide against it.
Just like the reason 80% of the teaching workforce is female, including around 1 in 4 teachers.
Mongolia (49% female researchers), Argentina (53%) Kazakhstan (52%)
So no it isn't all because of biology it is down to the fact that when presented with the choice they tend to decide against it.
Just like the reason 80% of the teaching workforce is female, including around 1 in 4 teachers.
But why do they decide against it? That's my point. Does their biology make it more likely for women to decide against it, or is this caused by social pressures? Could all the silly double standards society creates have something to do with it?
Besides, although there is some evidence that women are somewhat less interested than men, as far as I'm aware there's no research to support the conclusion that this difference can actually account for the gender gap.
Original post by Jd_uk
It's an interesting point that feminism has probably also been bad for a lot of women in ways too. I mean, it's been worse on men, no question about that but I do wonder how happy some women are genuinely. I'm talking real happiness/life satisfaction.
I've travelled a fair bit and when I go to countries like in central america I notice that although they are dangerous places (drug violence etc), people do on a day to day basis have strong values and respect for each other. The men do the traditional male things and the women do the traditional female things. There is a distinction between masculine and feminine but it works. There's a sort of respect that you don't see here. It was refreshing for me to go on nights out in those countries and see the men and women having a good time, dancing salsa together in an almost old fashioned (for here) way and the complete opposite of what now happens here post feminism.
Masculine and feminine has become so blurred. Here you look around and the women are acting like men ('the ladette' thing), standing in groups, telling guys to f off unless they like how they look, drinking til they can't stand up, tattooed, walking home bare foot. It's actually pretty grim. And the guys, well, skinny jeans like women have worn for years, carefully placed hair, gym toned but only for the sake of appearance, whitened teeth, unnaturally tanned... that has become like the ideal. That is what women actually seem to like based on the idiots we get on reality TV..and of course, men follow that. Guys these days b*tch about each other and openly direspect each other knowing there can't be any consequences. Why? Because in our super safe society , physicality is no longer relevant. Chat sh*t in Guatemala and you'll soon know about it. I dunno.. I find it kinda depressing what has happened in our society. With our 50% divorce rates etc.. go to those countries and it's like 0.2 in 1000 divorces. The women are happy to be women and the men are happy to be men.
I've travelled a fair bit and when I go to countries like in central america I notice that although they are dangerous places (drug violence etc), people do on a day to day basis have strong values and respect for each other. The men do the traditional male things and the women do the traditional female things. There is a distinction between masculine and feminine but it works. There's a sort of respect that you don't see here. It was refreshing for me to go on nights out in those countries and see the men and women having a good time, dancing salsa together in an almost old fashioned (for here) way and the complete opposite of what now happens here post feminism.
Masculine and feminine has become so blurred. Here you look around and the women are acting like men ('the ladette' thing), standing in groups, telling guys to f off unless they like how they look, drinking til they can't stand up, tattooed, walking home bare foot. It's actually pretty grim. And the guys, well, skinny jeans like women have worn for years, carefully placed hair, gym toned but only for the sake of appearance, whitened teeth, unnaturally tanned... that has become like the ideal. That is what women actually seem to like based on the idiots we get on reality TV..and of course, men follow that. Guys these days b*tch about each other and openly direspect each other knowing there can't be any consequences. Why? Because in our super safe society , physicality is no longer relevant. Chat sh*t in Guatemala and you'll soon know about it. I dunno.. I find it kinda depressing what has happened in our society. With our 50% divorce rates etc.. go to those countries and it's like 0.2 in 1000 divorces. The women are happy to be women and the men are happy to be men.
The problem with our society isn't with the idea of masculinity and femininity though; the problem is when people expect you to be traditionally masculine simply because you have a cock or traditionally feminine just because you don't. Or worse, when they argue that there is something 'wrong' with being a masculine woman, a feminine man or someone who isn't obviously masculine or feminine. I struggle to see how less prejudice can be a bad thing!
In terms of happiness, according to the World Happiness Report, Western countries really are at the top in terms of the happiness of their populations. Sure, central America does pretty well too, but I think you'd be hard pushed to evidence the position that their happiness is down to how they view sex/gender roles, and that the liberal, Western attitude is detrimental to happiness.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Implication
The problem with our society isn't with the idea of masculinity and femininity though; the problem is when people expect you to be traditionally masculine simply because you have a cock or traditionally feminine just because you don't. Or worse, when they argue that there is something 'wrong' with being a masculine woman, a feminine man or someone who isn't obviously masculine or feminine. I struggle to see how less prejudice and can be a bad thing!
In terms of happiness, according to the World Happiness Report, Western countries really are at the top in terms of the happiness of their populations. Sure, central America does pretty well too, but I think you'd be hard pushed to evidence the position that their happiness is down to how they view sex/gender roles, and that the liberal, Western attitude is detrimental to happiness.
In terms of happiness, according to the World Happiness Report, Western countries really are at the top in terms of the happiness of their populations. Sure, central America does pretty well too, but I think you'd be hard pushed to evidence the position that their happiness is down to how they view sex/gender roles, and that the liberal, Western attitude is detrimental to happiness.
I've not even looked at happiness stats but was just speaking from my own experience there. It was my little rant about what i see which is a real feminisation of western society. I actually agree that nobody should feel forced to be a specific way. If a girl wants to do tradionally boyish things then great and if a guy wants to do things which were traditionally more feminine then same. If i had kids i'd want them to be what they wanted. But it's almost like men are 'expected' to be less masculine these days because of modern feminism. Guys spend more and more time trying to look 'pretty' in a way which women did in the past and you hear women complain about where the 'real men' have gone. Women on the other hand probably act less feminine than in other countries, putting off having a family because of careers and living the single life for longer which in this country tends to constitute acting pretty 'laddish' in clubs/drinking too much etc. Then when they turn 30 they realise the need for stability if they haven't already got it and look for the 'nice guy' to settle with after years of promiscuity (because they can...'girl power' etc). It just seems sad to me how that has become the norm. I know which culture i prefer but that's just my opinion.
Original post by Jd_uk
I've not even looked at happiness stats but was just speaking from my own experience there. It was my little rant about what i see which is a real feminisation of western society. I actually agree that nobody should feel forced to be a specific way. If a girl wants to do tradionally boyish things then great and if a guy wants to do things which were traditionally more feminine then same. If i had kids i'd want them to be what they wanted. But it's almost like men are 'expected' to be less masculine these days because of modern feminism. Guys spend more and more time trying to look 'pretty' in a way which women did in the past and you hear women complain about where the 'real men' have gone. Women on the other hand probably act less feminine than in other countries, putting off having a family because of careers and living the single life for longer which in this country tends to constitute acting pretty 'laddish' in clubs/drinking too much etc. Then when they turn 30 they realise the need for stability if they haven't already got it and look for the 'nice guy' to settle with after years of promiscuity (because they can...'girl power' etc). It just seems sad to me how that has become the norm. I know which culture i prefer but that's just my opinion.
Yeah I do kind of get what you mean about men being expected to be less masculine - it does seem like masculinity is often seen as an inherently bad thing now. That said, I don't mind guys trying to look pretty or women acting laddish and/or promiscuously! To each his own though
Original post by Implication
Although it's true that a man can't be raped by a woman, I believe men can be raped by other men. I think the reason for this is that the definition of legal rape requires that the object doing the penetrating be a penis.
Perhaps, but that leaves us with the very interesting question of why women spend their time differently. If it's ultimately down to societal pressures, gender-related stereotypes etc. etc. than we still have a problem.
For example, the gender gap in STEM is pretty big - if I recall correctly, only 12-15% of STEM workers are female. If we could trace this imbalance all the way back to birth and show that the only reasons for its existence are biological factors e.g. hormones etc. associated with sex, then I don't see that there is a problem. But this hasn't been done, and to me at least it seems extraordinarily unlikely that the size of this gap can be accounted for completely by physiology and doesn't have anything to do with the ridiculous gender-based double standards society continuously imposes. So in my view, it really is still a problem even if it isn't the result of direct discrimination.
Perhaps, but that leaves us with the very interesting question of why women spend their time differently. If it's ultimately down to societal pressures, gender-related stereotypes etc. etc. than we still have a problem.
For example, the gender gap in STEM is pretty big - if I recall correctly, only 12-15% of STEM workers are female. If we could trace this imbalance all the way back to birth and show that the only reasons for its existence are biological factors e.g. hormones etc. associated with sex, then I don't see that there is a problem. But this hasn't been done, and to me at least it seems extraordinarily unlikely that the size of this gap can be accounted for completely by physiology and doesn't have anything to do with the ridiculous gender-based double standards society continuously imposes. So in my view, it really is still a problem even if it isn't the result of direct discrimination.
I believe part of the reason for that gap is the fact that STEM pays a lot of money this means it attracts males men are more interested in getting money than a career they enjoy and the opposite for women the reasons for this are partly due to competitiveness caused by testosterone.
I have also looked at statistics and this gap seems to be a lot worse than the differences in the studying levels at the moment and thus a lot of the difference is probably due to past sexism considering older workers.
The gap may also be due to the best men being a bit better than the best women(men get more 1st's men significantly perform better than women on STEP Maths entrance exams not sure about other sciences).
A lot of this performance difference is probably due to men showing obsessiveness about their subject(I have seen very few obsessive female lecturers/teachers I had one obsessive female Physics teacher though I really liked her and obsessiveness is really important in Science it is those who will work all day on a problem who will make discoveries).To show this point consider the numbers of women and men who took A Level Additional Further Maths on Edexcel 55 men and just 6 women this ratio gets better as you go from Additional Further Maths to Further Maths(4993:2124) to Maths(24589:16370).If you had Additional Further and Further subjects for other Sciences I suspect you would get the same results.I am starting to think such obsessiveness may be men trying to be competitive making them dedicated and obsessive, competitiveness is increased with testosterone.
I have seen lots of men on here very enthusiastic about Maths and the same can often be said about women in the arts too being very enthusiastic about English, so it seems clear to me different subjects appeal more to the different sexes.
Studies have shown that men are better at spatial awareness(does this give them greater appreciation of Maths/Physics? so make them like it more?) and women are better at linguistics.
Another important factor is autism and aspergers this is much more common in men and a lot of top Mathematicians/Scientists have autism/aspergers.
I also feel that people have got to be prepared to fight the stereotypes and fight for what they want and argue critically(like I have been reading that girls have been rejecting Science that they love because of a testosterone charged atmosphere? clearly that isn't a good rational decision).I would not let anything stop me studying something I wanted to do not something silly like that not studying it because you don't like men.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by donutellme
How exactly is that against the law? Would you prefer nobody spoke to you at all?
Those comments are a side effect of free speech and liberty. It doesn't mean you are not equal.
Those comments are a side effect of free speech and liberty. It doesn't mean you are not equal.
What about the grabbing? For example, I told a man I wasn't interested in him whilst he was making a move on me on Saturday night which proceeded to him grabbed my arm really tightly (so much that it was slightly painful) and pulling me towards him, getting quite aggressive and everytime I'd pull away he'd hold on tighter. It led to someone I didn't know having to pretend he was my boyfriend.
Also I don't see those people making the same derogortary comments about a fellow male's body?
Original post by Dalek1099
If this happened to a man they would laughed at, in the end of the day its criminal behaviour its illegal and seen as immoral so what can Feminism do about it?The reason this behaviour happens is extremely simply nasty men with a high sex drive, neither of these things Feminism can fix so this can never change.Its like if you are a criminal and want to steal something then you will steal something feminism can't defeat either evil or desire.
I think it's more about stopping the objectification of a female's body really. Seeing a woman as a person, rather than 'wow, I'd bang that'. At the end of the day they wouldn't like it if it was their sister or their daughter being harrassed like that.
Original post by anna__
I think it's more about stopping the objectification of a female's body really. Seeing a woman as a person, rather than 'wow, I'd bang that'. At the end of the day they wouldn't like it if it was their sister or their daughter being harrassed like that.
It happens to men as well.
Original post by Thomb
It happens to men as well.
Oh I agree that it must, and don't get me wrong, I definitely talk to my friends about who's the hottest guy on my course etc, but I wouldn't push them against a wall and make derogotary comments towards them so they're scared as hell. I dunno, I've never seen that happen anyway.
Original post by anna__
Oh I agree that it must, and don't get me wrong, I definitely talk to my friends about who's the hottest guy on my course etc, but I wouldn't push them against a wall and make derogotary comments towards them so they're scared as hell. I dunno, I've never seen that happen anyway.
What are you saying that its alright to do to men what shouldn't happen to women?
Original post by anna__
What about the grabbing? For example, I told a man I wasn't interested in him whilst he was making a move on me on Saturday night which proceeded to him grabbed my arm really tightly (so much that it was slightly painful) and pulling me towards him, getting quite aggressive and everytime I'd pull away he'd hold on tighter. It led to someone I didn't know having to pretend he was my boyfriend.
Also I don't see those people making the same derogortary comments about a fellow male's body?
Also I don't see those people making the same derogortary comments about a fellow male's body?
That's obviously not on, because it's pretty much assault.
And those people don't make derogatory comments towards males because they're probably not gay. However, women objectify men all the time, only reason you don't hear about it is because either we don't care or just accept it and move on.
Original post by Thomb
What are you saying that its alright to do to men what shouldn't happen to women?
no.. when did I ever say that? ahaha. Don't twist my words. I just said YES girls do talk about who's attractive, but we wouldn't assault them (like many of my friends and I have experienced by men). In fact if a man said I was attractive, I'd see it as a nice compliment, but there's no need to push someone against a wall and tell them you'd like to sleep with them and shout at them.. again just experiences, but maybe that's not valid because it's not the worst thing that could happen to someone.
Original post by anna__
Oh I agree that it must, and don't get me wrong, I definitely talk to my friends about who's the hottest guy on my course etc, but I wouldn't push them against a wall and make derogotary comments towards them so they're scared as hell. I dunno, I've never seen that happen anyway.
That is assault and intimidation and that is illegal. People who do that are a tiny criminal minority and tiny criminal minorities will always exist. Therefore feminism cannot change it.
Also, what exactly is wrong with "objectification", as you put it? What is wrong with seeing an attractive person and thinking "Yeh, I'd tap that" and then possibly sharing your thoughts with your friends? It happens to men just as much as women and it's called a "sex drive". The feminist reaction to it is laughable, actually. A while back, I remember on Buzzfeed there was some poll about certain female celebrities' butts and boobs and there was a feminist significant backlash. But then a very similar poll about certain male celebrities' butts and bulges surfaced.... no feminist backlash.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by The Good Doctor
That is assault and intimidation and that is illegal. People who do that are a tiny criminal minority and tiny criminal minorities will always exist. Therefore feminism cannot change it.
Also, what exactly is wrong with "objectification", as you put it? What is wrong with seeing an attractive person and thinking "Yeh, I'd tap that" and then possibly sharing your thoughts with your friends? It happens to men just as much as women and it's called a "sex drive". The feminist reaction to it is laughable, actually. A while back, I remember on Buzzfeed there was some poll about certain female celebrities' butts and boobs and there was a feminist significant backlash. But then a very similar poll about certain male celebrities' butts and bulges surfaced.... no feminist backlash.
Also, what exactly is wrong with "objectification", as you put it? What is wrong with seeing an attractive person and thinking "Yeh, I'd tap that" and then possibly sharing your thoughts with your friends? It happens to men just as much as women and it's called a "sex drive". The feminist reaction to it is laughable, actually. A while back, I remember on Buzzfeed there was some poll about certain female celebrities' butts and boobs and there was a feminist significant backlash. But then a very similar poll about certain male celebrities' butts and bulges surfaced.... no feminist backlash.
Objectification is ok when it's about men..if guys do it to women it's sexist..(or even worse 'creepy' if they think you're ugly/older/anything they don't fancy). Words like 'creepy' are used more and more by women now to try and shame men.
Note - Obviously any physical threat if a woman isn't interested is not ok.
I am all for Feminism, as long as its a interchangable word for Egalitarianism.
Feminism is chaos. It's evil and destructive in every way possible. Equality is one thing, feminism is another. I love women who are strong enough alone and don't need to hide behind a group of masculine lesbians with green hair, to gain their strength. It also does women no favours. Liberals and the left wing have only made life harder for women and are now not looking for equal treatment but rather special treatment and get the best of both worlds.
Original post by anna__
I think it's more about stopping the objectification of a female's body really. Seeing a woman as a person, rather than 'wow, I'd bang that'. At the end of the day they wouldn't like it if it was their sister or their daughter being harrassed like that.
Nasty men will always do that because they want to.Your logic only applies to good moral people(why would nasty men follow the Golden Rule?), these nasty men don't care about most women they hopefully care about their sister and daughter because they are family.
I've often been thinking about whether their behaviour is necessarily sexist or not if men offered something they wanted like women did they'd probably behave in the same way, these men like getting their own way and being in control of everything.
Original post by anna__
I think it's more about stopping the objectification of a female's body really. Seeing a woman as a person, rather than 'wow, I'd bang that'. At the end of the day they wouldn't like it if it was their sister or their daughter being harrassed like that.
Everybody wants to be the victim. Have you ever watched Sex and the City ? Women objectify men just as much and so does porn for that matter. Feminists try to make out that all women are oppressed and that all men are liberated, when that's simply not true. And at the end of the day women are the weaker gender so it's not about being oppressed as much as it is about being careful.
Original post by #JOSH45#
Everybody wants to be the victim. Have you ever watched Sex and the City ? Women objectify men just as much and so does porn for that matter. Feminists try to make out that all women are oppressed and that all men are liberated, when that's simply not true. And at the end of the day women are the weaker gender so it's not about being oppressed as much as it is about being careful.
I was thinking that your comment was on point, until I read 'women are the weaker gender'.. what why and how!?
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