Staying - the logical choice

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexitvote/2016/05/27/dear-friends-this-is-why-i-will-vote-remain-in-the-referendum/

Especially this part made me laugh so much:

"Members of the European Economic Area like Norway have access to the single market without being members of the EU. However, as a former foreign minister of Norway explains, Norway must (a) accept free migration of EU citizens, (b) contribute to the EU budget, and (c) comply with all EU rules but with no say in making those rules."

Seen so many people here give Norway as an example of how great out of the EU will, how they still get to trade, etc. and a) goes directly against what most Leave people don't want - free migration of EU citizens.

Reply 1

The Roast

It's not "logical" it's the safe option.

Also, Leave are against "free migration of EU citizens"? Source?!

We want control of our own borders - we want to be able to choose who we let in.

Reply 2

nulli tertius

Original post by The Roast

We want control of our own borders - we want to be able to choose who we let in.

But that is the point with Norway. Norway has much less control of its borders than we do.

Not only does every EU citizen have the same rights to live and work in Norway as they have to work in Belgium and the UK, but anyone (whether an EU citizen or not) entering Norway from another Schengen state does not have to produce any form of ID to enter Norway. I've done it myself, I've entered Norway without a passport.

Reply 3

inhuman

Original post by The Roast

It's not "logical" it's the safe option.

Also, Leave are against "free migration of EU citizens"? Source?!

We want control of our own borders - we want to be able to choose who we let in.

But you can't if you have to accept EU citizens...

lol

Reply 4

The Roast

Original post by nulli tertius

Well fortunately the UK isn't in the Schengen Space. You need a NINO (national insurance number) to legally work in the UK, which is bloody fantastic.

The problem is we're handing out so many of them.

I haven't read much into the whole Norway argument to be honest, however I don't think we can compare the UK with Norway.

Reply 5

The Roast

Original post by inhuman

But you can't if you have to accept EU citizens...

lol

We can deny entry to EU citizens if their are grounds to, don't be a fool.

Reply 6

sleepysnooze

some arguments I always see for remaining on the internet:

"we need to stay in the EU so we can reform it from within - it's undemocratic, yes, but how will leaving make it change?"

-if the UK basically threatening to leave the EU when we're their 2nd richest member and we basically got no reforms, how the **** will staying reform it? we get defeated on 32 out of 32 issues in the council, so how are we powerful enough to inspire reform? the EU members from the continent don't share our agenda for sovereignty - germany, spain, france, belgium, etc, all want to integrate MORE - it's rare when it's the other way around. we're the awkward partner for a reason.

"we need to stay in the EU because we need to trade with the EU - it will damage us economically if we leave"

-switzerland trades 5x more than the UK with the EU, even though the UK is in the EU itself. how does this suggest that we need membership of the EU to trade with other EU countries?
-the EU is a crumbling and stagnating trading bloc that is about protectionism (economically destructive practises of rewarding incompetence, particularly in agriculture, fisheries, etc, making the customers of the UK have to pay more, both as consumers and tax payers) - how does staying in this bloc help us economically?
also do I really even need to mention the fact that we have to pay about £40 million a day to the EU?

"the UK is stronger within the EU"
-how?! we're members of NATO, the UNSC, we're the 5th largest economy in the entire world, we have one of the most skillful military forces etc - what does the EU have going for it?

"the EU is democratic - we shouldn't leave it if it's democratic enough for us"

-there are roughly 1 million people per MEP. that's blurring the representation of individuals to a monstrous level. also, MEPs have basically no power in the EU. if the point of the parliament is to control policy democratically, then why can't the parliament propose its own laws or amend propositions from the commission? if you voted out the whole parliament, all the same bad laws would exist still and there would be NOTHING the parliament could do to change things. isn't that the point of rep democracy? if you don't like the laws you have, you elect people to vote them out? well he parliament of the EU literally can't do that! the entirely unelected commissioners do all of that. for example, when did "lord hill" ever become elected? who even heard about him until recently? he's our UK commissioner - how can he possibly do a democratic job for us without getting elected? how does he understand what the people want? also, I shouldn't even need to mention this, but the EU is sovereign over memberstates - how is that democratic when you have 1) nations that elect their own leaders, compared with 2) unelected leaders ruling sovereignly over elected leaders of nations? a ruling of the ECJ means that even if 100% of the people in a nation voted for something, the ECJ could flip the bird on it and order that motion to abolish itself.

"we can control immigration even as a member of the EU"

-"control"? part of "freedom of movement" don't you people understand?
sure, EU immigration isn't all of our immigration, but it is the immigration that is mostly unskilled and not points-based like non-EU immigration - that's why we have quite a lot of non-EU immigration (e.g. the NHS). yet why should we have so much EU immigration when it drives down wages, jobs living space, etc?

"if you don't like the EU you're racist *adjusts hipster glasses*"
-I don't even need to comment

"world war 3 will happen without the EU"
-I shouldn't be needing to comment, but if these EU advocates had half abrain, they'd understand that FREE TRADE fosters peace, not political unification - or else why did yugoslavia go so wrongly in the 90s?! the EU doesn't like free trade - not very much at least - it might like it with its own members, but what about the rest of the world? it uses protectionism and tariffs against the rest of the world, so surely that's creating more conflict than peace?

"the EU protects workers rights"
-it more favours corporations and corrupt industries who can lobby it. workers can't lobby the EU like they can. also, the UK is a democracy - why wouldn't a democracy factor in the interests of voters? sure they can get lobbied too as a democracy, but the EU literally has nothing to do with democracy by contrast.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 7

nulli tertius

Original post by The Roast

Read this, written by an EU opponent and you will understand the issue.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/01/leave-camp-must-accept-that-norway-model-is-the-only-safe-way-to/?WT.mc_id=e_DM124188&WT.tsrc=email&etype=Edi_FAM_New_AEM_Recipient&utm_source=email&utm_medium=Edi_FAM_New_AEM_Recipient_2016_06_02&utm_campaign=DM124188

Reply 8

inhuman

Original post by The Roast

We can deny entry to EU citizens if their are grounds to, don't be a fool.

And you can't do that now, if there are grounds to?

Reply 9

The Roast

Original post by inhuman

And you can't do that now, if there are grounds to?

And that's why we want to leave.

Reply 10

inhuman

Original post by The Roast

And that's why we want to leave.

And I just gave you the example of Norway, a country which many people think the UK could be like in relations to the EU.

And Norway has to accept EU citizens. So nothing on that front would change...

Reply 11

ODES_PDES

Maybe the safe option, but in life you have to take risks sometimes.

Reply 12

inhuman

Original post by ODES_PDES

Maybe the safe option, but in life you have to take risks sometimes.

That's the point, it's not just the safe option.

It's the fact that most things Leavers think will happen, won't.

And talking about risk, a main point of Leavers is that in the near future there will be complete union. Just stay and take the risk of that happening, or it won't and all your fear was for nothing.