Brexit: a Canadian's perspective
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Original post by Dandaman1
You didn't see what I did with Beurocrats? I thought that was a good one...
Oh
Original post by Dandaman1
Even if some are elected, are they elected by the UK people? No.
The UK has MEPs like everyone else, lol, why would you tell a barefaced lie like that?
Original post by Dandaman1
But do you really think the 'ever closer union' isn't going to clamp its jaws tighter around the UK eventually? And the economic benefits of staying? Need I remind you the EU's economy has barely grown in the past 10 years? The rest of the world, however...
If we think the jaws are getting unreasonably tight in the future, we can leave. They're not too tight at the moment, so there's no need.
The "rest of the world"? Give me a specific example.
Original post by Dandaman1
I read a Guardian article where it mentioned it was also sent out to students. I'll double check that..
They might have edited it tbf
Original post by Dandaman1
And ah yes, those corporations and financial organizations that so totally aren't under any sort of EU influence would say that.
You think the banks are saying we should stay in the EU because they're being pressured into it by Jean-Claude Juncker? Come off it. They're worried about their revenue, to which the UK economy is directly linked. They have no reason to lie about this (and to act like they're a homogeneous group that could possibly orchestrate that scale of deception is ridiculous). As for the IMF and IFS, they are independent institutions, whether the Leave campaign likes it or not.
Original post by StrangeBanana
Oh
They have no reason to lie about this (and to act like they're a homogeneous group that could possibly orchestrate that scale of deception is ridiculous). .
They have no reason to lie about this (and to act like they're a homogeneous group that could possibly orchestrate that scale of deception is ridiculous). .
Well, they got a fair bit of practice re the art of cooperation rigging LIBOR
Original post by StrangeBanana
Oh
The UK has MEPs like everyone else, lol, why would you tell a barefaced lie like that?
If we think the jaws are getting unreasonably tight in the future, we can leave. They're not too tight at the moment, so there's no need.
The "rest of the world"? Give me a specific example.
They might have edited it tbf
You think the banks are saying we should stay in the EU because they're being pressured into it by Jean-Claude Juncker? Come off it. They're worried about their revenue, to which the UK economy is directly linked. They have no reason to lie about this (and to act like they're a homogeneous group that could possibly orchestrate that scale of deception is ridiculous). As for the IMF and IFS, they are independent institutions, whether the Leave campaign likes it or not.
The UK has MEPs like everyone else, lol, why would you tell a barefaced lie like that?
If we think the jaws are getting unreasonably tight in the future, we can leave. They're not too tight at the moment, so there's no need.
The "rest of the world"? Give me a specific example.
They might have edited it tbf
You think the banks are saying we should stay in the EU because they're being pressured into it by Jean-Claude Juncker? Come off it. They're worried about their revenue, to which the UK economy is directly linked. They have no reason to lie about this (and to act like they're a homogeneous group that could possibly orchestrate that scale of deception is ridiculous). As for the IMF and IFS, they are independent institutions, whether the Leave campaign likes it or not.
Parliamentary members are the politicians, not the bureaucrats. The European Council and the European Commission, which together have most of the legislative power, are not elected by the people, however. And MEPs can't propose laws or implement them, only debate them. The few UK-elected MEPs have very little influence or say in somethething that affects the UK so substantially.
China and India are two examples of Nations who's GDPs have risen at far greater rates than the EU's. Even Africa is growing faster. The EU economy on the otherhand, which is now smaller than the US economy, has barely grown since the mid-2000s, and you're tying yourselves to it (for no other reason than geographic proximity, it seems).
Also, wasn't there similar scaremongering about the UK not joining the Eurozone, also backed by economists? And they were completely wrong.
Original post by Dandaman1
Parliamentary members are the politicians, not the bureaucrats. The European Council and the European Commission, which together have most of the legislative power, are not elected by the people, however. And MEPs can't propose laws or implement them, only debate them. The few UK-elected MEPs have very little influence or say in somethething that affects the UK so substantially.
China and India are two examples of Nations who's GDPs have risen at far greater rates than the EU's. Even Africa is growing faster. The EU economy on the otherhand, which is now smaller than the US economy, has barely grown since the mid-2000s, and you're tying yourselves to it (for no other reason than geographic proximity, it seems).
Also, wasn't there similar scaremongering about the UK not joining the Eurozone, also backed by economists? And they were completely wrong.
China and India are two examples of Nations who's GDPs have risen at far greater rates than the EU's. Even Africa is growing faster. The EU economy on the otherhand, which is now smaller than the US economy, has barely grown since the mid-2000s, and you're tying yourselves to it (for no other reason than geographic proximity, it seems).
Also, wasn't there similar scaremongering about the UK not joining the Eurozone, also backed by economists? And they were completely wrong.
To be fair you would never expect any Western European country to have growth rates similar to China or India, when starting from a lower base of GDP per capita growth at their sorts of rates is possible. However as their GDP per capita increases their growth rates will therafter slow. (The big question with China is, are we seeing the start of that decline or is the current reduced growth rate a blip on the path)
On the other hand the EU has been particularly poor as a whole
Original post by Dandaman1
Parliamentary members are the politicians, not the bureaucrats. The European Council and the European Commission, which together have most of the legislative power, are not elected by the people, however. And MEPs can't propose laws or implement them, only debate them. The few UK-elected MEPs have very little influence or say in somethething that affects the UK so substantially.
Yes, it's not very democratic. Not a good enough reason to leave, imo.
Original post by Dandaman1
China and India are two examples of Nations who's GDPs have risen at far greater rates than the EU's. Even Africa is growing faster. The EU economy on the otherhand, which is now smaller than the US economy, has barely grown since the mid-2000s, and you're tying yourselves to it (for no other reason than geographic proximity, it seems).
Comparing the EU to emerging markets is silly. You say all of this like the UK's growth is going to shoot up if we leave. It's going to go down.
Original post by Dandaman1
Also, wasn't there similar scaremongering about the UK not joining the Eurozone, also backed by economists? And they were completely wrong.
It wasn't close to this level of consensus
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by The Roast
Hear! Hear!
I fear that the 18-24 year cucks will be the end of it though...
I fear that the 18-24 year cucks will be the end of it though...
Firstly, "18-24 year old cucks", what language are you even speaking?
Secondly, 18-24 year olds don't vote , so you're obviously hugely misinformed
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Dandaman1
Parliamentary members are the politicians, not the bureaucrats. The European Council and the European Commission, which together have most of the legislative power, are not elected by the people, however. And MEPs can't propose laws or implement them, only debate them. The few UK-elected MEPs have very little influence or say in somethething that affects the UK so substantially.
The European Council is made up of the Head of State or Government of each member. In the UK's case, that'd be the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister of the UK was elected into office just last year.
The Commission is not elected directly by the people. Each member state has a commissioner and the European Parliament votes on the appointment of commissioners.
I'd as people whether they remember voting in senior figures of the civil service, anyone in the House of Lords or political advisors. The answer is no.
Dandaman1
Also, wasn't there similar scaremongering about the UK not joining the Eurozone, also backed by economists? And they were completely wrong.
I don't think there was. The most significant economists (IMF, Bank of England etc) didn't suggest the UK adopt the Euro. They are also saying that the exit the EU would be a bad thing. Them along with many other people who are senior in this field.
Even the head of the WTO is saying that we should stay in. This is particularly funny because the Brexit campaign have spent some time suggesting that relying on the WTO would be an advantageous alternative to EU membership.
Original post by InnerTemple
The European Council is made up of the Head of State or Government of each member. In the UK's case, that'd be the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister of the UK was elected into office just last year.
The Commission is not elected directly by the people. Each member state has a commissioner and the European Parliament votes on the appointment of commissioners.
I'd as people whether they remember voting in senior figures of the civil service, anyone in the House of Lords or political advisors. The answer is no.
The Commission is not elected directly by the people. Each member state has a commissioner and the European Parliament votes on the appointment of commissioners.
I'd as people whether they remember voting in senior figures of the civil service, anyone in the House of Lords or political advisors. The answer is no.
My mistake (concerning the European Council).
However, the UK still finds itself in a position where a substantial chunk of its legislation is decided by foreign politicians and bureaucrats. UK policy should be determined by UK politicians (and internally appointed bureaucrats) from UK parties. It's a matter of principle. But now you're afraid of leaving because you've become too dependent on a European superstate that won't even let you take control of your own damn economy and trade.
I can give you my German perspective. My oppinion is that you should indeed leave! Unlike many other Germans, who quite arrogantly say that the UK is a burden on the EU, I think quite the opposite. The EU is a failed project that is slowly becoming a burden on the UK, not vice versa.
There is a myth going around that the EU is somehow necessary for efficient cooperation, when the reality is literally the opposite. There are ZERO trade or policy deals negotiated by the EU that could not be negotiated much more effectively independently.
Furthermore, the UK is not bound to the Euro, which makes a BREXIT more managable than a DEXIT or a FREXIT. (The latter two would be the fall of the EU anyway). What started out as a noble project is a dangerous bureaucracy that is becoming too big for itsself.
Im looking to study in the UK, which I would benefit from as an EU student, but I cannot advocate something that is bad for the UK. For centuries the UK, England to be exact, was to mainland Europe what the moon is to the earth; an extremely important counterbalance. During WW2 it remained the last standing democracy in Europe and in the 21st century it has the chance to become the first democracy in Europe to kill a bureaucratic monster.
Oh, and no, Europe wont collapse and WW3 wont break out because the UK leaves the EU..... as some seem to think....There will be negative effects for the UK, but the positive ones will outweigh them.
USE YOUR CHANCE BRITS, SCOTS, WELSH and N. IRISH!
PS: Germany is the most oblivious country in the EU. Whether it is the refugee crisis, the attitude towards the EU or our foreign policy. We will be the first to respond, but the last to admit the actual problem. And it seems that most of us are proud of that mentality... for some reason.
There is a myth going around that the EU is somehow necessary for efficient cooperation, when the reality is literally the opposite. There are ZERO trade or policy deals negotiated by the EU that could not be negotiated much more effectively independently.
Furthermore, the UK is not bound to the Euro, which makes a BREXIT more managable than a DEXIT or a FREXIT. (The latter two would be the fall of the EU anyway). What started out as a noble project is a dangerous bureaucracy that is becoming too big for itsself.
Im looking to study in the UK, which I would benefit from as an EU student, but I cannot advocate something that is bad for the UK. For centuries the UK, England to be exact, was to mainland Europe what the moon is to the earth; an extremely important counterbalance. During WW2 it remained the last standing democracy in Europe and in the 21st century it has the chance to become the first democracy in Europe to kill a bureaucratic monster.
Oh, and no, Europe wont collapse and WW3 wont break out because the UK leaves the EU..... as some seem to think....There will be negative effects for the UK, but the positive ones will outweigh them.
USE YOUR CHANCE BRITS, SCOTS, WELSH and N. IRISH!
PS: Germany is the most oblivious country in the EU. Whether it is the refugee crisis, the attitude towards the EU or our foreign policy. We will be the first to respond, but the last to admit the actual problem. And it seems that most of us are proud of that mentality... for some reason.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Galaxie501
I can give you my German perspective. My oppinion is that you should indeed leave! Unlike many other Germans, who quite arrogantly say that the UK is a burden on the EU, I think quite the opposite. The EU is a failed project that is slowly becoming a burden on the UK, not vice versa.
There is a myth going around that the EU is somehow necessary for efficient cooperation, when the reality is literally the opposite. There are ZERO trade or policy deals negotiated by the EU that could not be negotiated much more effectively independently.
Furthermore, the UK is not bound to the Euro, which makes a BREXIT more managable than a DEXIT or a FREXIT. (The latter two would be the fall of the EU anyway). What started out as a noble project is a dangerous bureaucracy that is becoming too big for itsself.
Im looking to study in the UK, which I would benefit from as an EU student, but I cannot advocate something that is bad for the UK. For centuries the UK, England to be exact, was to mainland Europe what the moon is to the earth; an extremely important counterbalance. During WW2 it remained the last standing democracy in Europe and in the 21st century it has the chance to become the first democracy in Europe to kill a bureaucratic monster.
Oh, and no, Europe wont collapse and WW3 wont break out because the UK leaves the EU..... as some seem to think....There will be negative effects for the UK, but the positive ones will outweigh them.
USE YOUR CHANCE BRITS, SCOTS, WELSH and N. IRISH!
PS: Germany is the most oblivious country in the EU. Whether it is the refugee crisis, the attitude towards the EU or our foreign policy. We will be the first to respond, but the last to admit the actual problem. And it seems that most of us are proud of that mentality... for some reason.
There is a myth going around that the EU is somehow necessary for efficient cooperation, when the reality is literally the opposite. There are ZERO trade or policy deals negotiated by the EU that could not be negotiated much more effectively independently.
Furthermore, the UK is not bound to the Euro, which makes a BREXIT more managable than a DEXIT or a FREXIT. (The latter two would be the fall of the EU anyway). What started out as a noble project is a dangerous bureaucracy that is becoming too big for itsself.
Im looking to study in the UK, which I would benefit from as an EU student, but I cannot advocate something that is bad for the UK. For centuries the UK, England to be exact, was to mainland Europe what the moon is to the earth; an extremely important counterbalance. During WW2 it remained the last standing democracy in Europe and in the 21st century it has the chance to become the first democracy in Europe to kill a bureaucratic monster.
Oh, and no, Europe wont collapse and WW3 wont break out because the UK leaves the EU..... as some seem to think....There will be negative effects for the UK, but the positive ones will outweigh them.
USE YOUR CHANCE BRITS, SCOTS, WELSH and N. IRISH!
PS: Germany is the most oblivious country in the EU. Whether it is the refugee crisis, the attitude towards the EU or our foreign policy. We will be the first to respond, but the last to admit the actual problem. And it seems that most of us are proud of that mentality... for some reason.
I would say that the EU and UK are mutually burdens on each other because we're slowing the advance of the project.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Jammy Duel
I would say that the EU and UK are mutually burdens on each other because we're slowing the advance of the project.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Posted from TSR Mobile
Even though one must admit that its hard to be a burden on a failed project. The EU was a noble project, but the principles have been hijacked and thrown out the window. It is literally an organism that keeps itsself alive for the sake of staying alive, with no purpose or value. It contributes nothing to the greater good, quite the opposite.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Galaxie501
Even though one must admit that its hard to be a burden on a failed project.
Try telling that to most of the eurocrats for whom the answer to every problem is simply "more Europe".
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Jammy Duel
Try telling that to most of the eurocrats for whom the answer to every problem is simply "more Europe".
Posted from TSR Mobile
Posted from TSR Mobile
Exactly. The Brits are across the board the most awake people in Europe, so I'm confindent they'll get their act together sooner or later. Im much more concerned for France, Belgium and Germany. Especially with populations that are big blind reality denying Eurofans.
Not to mention cultural marxism, which is slowly eating up Europe from the inside.
The state of this thread.
I want to remain. No doubt. The main reason why I have never, ever considered voting leave is because of the people heading the campaign - Boris Johnson, Gove, Priti Patel, UKIP. Their xenophobic rhetoric regarding immigrants is disgraceful, their lies are disgraceful. I could NEVER bring myself to vote alongside such people.
YES, the EU is somewhat bureaucratic, YES the EU is undemocratic and YES it limits parliamentary sovereignty. But.
WE are bureaucratic, and WE are undemocratic - such is the nature of democracy is that it does not work. And frankly, I'd much rather have an elected EU Parliament limiting our sovereignty than a government with COMPLETE power over our constitution and legislative agenda - they could do anything.
I want to remain. No doubt. The main reason why I have never, ever considered voting leave is because of the people heading the campaign - Boris Johnson, Gove, Priti Patel, UKIP. Their xenophobic rhetoric regarding immigrants is disgraceful, their lies are disgraceful. I could NEVER bring myself to vote alongside such people.
YES, the EU is somewhat bureaucratic, YES the EU is undemocratic and YES it limits parliamentary sovereignty. But.
WE are bureaucratic, and WE are undemocratic - such is the nature of democracy is that it does not work. And frankly, I'd much rather have an elected EU Parliament limiting our sovereignty than a government with COMPLETE power over our constitution and legislative agenda - they could do anything.
Original post by Galaxie501
Exactly. The Brits are across the board the most awake people in Europe, so I'm confindent they'll get their act together sooner or later. Im much more concerned for France, Belgium and Germany. Especially with populations that are big blind reality denying Eurofans.
Not to mention cultural marxism, which is slowly eating up Europe from the inside.
Not to mention cultural marxism, which is slowly eating up Europe from the inside.
MARXISM?? Are you an idiot? Right-wing xenophobic nationalism is eating up Europe from the inside. UKIP. Five Star Movement in Italy, Germany's AfG, NF in France and the Law and Justice Party from Poland are growing right-wing parties that plague democracy
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by bearo99
MARXISM?? Are you an idiot? Right-wing xenophobic nationalism is eating up Europe from the inside. UKIP. Five Star Movement in Italy, Germany's AfG, NF in France and the Law and Justice Party from Poland are growing right-wing parties that plague democracy
You have zero idea what you're talking about. You seem like some SJW regressive unwilling to face reality.
Democracy in Europe being dissolved by the EU ---> goes on about how democratically elected right-wing groups dissolve democracy. Lmao. Oh yeah, I forgot, we have to counter nationalism with religious fascism. That seems to be the regressive solution to the problem.
You are literally part of the problem with that reality denying socio-politically uneducated preschool mentality. One could confuse your text with Erich Honecker if this wasnt TSR. Absolutely stunned by your ignorance. Unbelievable.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Galaxie501
You have zero idea what you're talking about. You seem like some SJW regressive unwilling to face reality.
Democracy in Europe being dissolved by the EU ---> goes on about how democratically elected right-wing groups dissolve democracy. Lmao. Oh yeah, I forgot, we have to counter nationalism with religious fascism. That seems to be the regressive solution to the problem.
You are literally part of the problem with that reality denying socio-politically uneducated preschool mentality. One could confuse your text with Erich Honecker if this wasnt TSR. Absolutely stunned by your ignorance. Unbelievable.
Democracy in Europe being dissolved by the EU ---> goes on about how democratically elected right-wing groups dissolve democracy. Lmao. Oh yeah, I forgot, we have to counter nationalism with religious fascism. That seems to be the regressive solution to the problem.
You are literally part of the problem with that reality denying socio-politically uneducated preschool mentality. One could confuse your text with Erich Honecker if this wasnt TSR. Absolutely stunned by your ignorance. Unbelievable.
First of all, stop taking the moral high-ground on this issue. I'm not part of a 'socio-politically uneducated preschool mentality', and neither should my realism of a growing volatile right-wing nationalism in Europe be branded as communist. But there we go. I never said democratically elected right-wing groups were destroying democracy either, just said they are a pile of ****.
The EU is a prime example of democracy WORKING. Compare the EU's 'bureaucracy' with anti-democracy authoritarianism of the past; we should be grateful of a democratic body that has been able to unite Europe following centuries of conflict. There's no ignorance in supporting a body that has helped grow democracy throughout Europe (Eastern Europe most notably); the ignorance is in leaving it as you believe in a sense of idiotic self-entitlement about Britain's world stature. Our place is working with other countries. Our place is working in Europe.
Original post by Jebedee
If only we could prevent the unemployed from voting. Brexit would win by a landslide.
Is that a joke, trolling or just ignorance? the unemployed will be the ones voting leave since they are the ones affected by immigration more (competition both in work and finding cheap accomodation) since the immigrants won't live in the rich areas.
Its the rich that vote stay as they want a cheap workforce and won't have to live in arears where it affects jobs, NHS, schools etc.
Okay, yea maybe the EU gives us less freedom but it's not that bad, I don't feel enslaved by the EU and most of the time I forget that England is even an EU member.
The real problem is with trade, like you said it would be hindered but no matter how strong the UK is, we won't be able to trade freely with the EU, there will be import/export taxes on so many things that we sell so obviously, our trading partners in Europe will shift their attention to France, Germany and Spain... WHY? because they can trade with those countries for free, why spend extra money just to trade with the UK?
I know that Norway is 'doing OK' without the EU but their population is tiny compared to the UKs and they have Oil reserves that the EU wants to buy from them regardless of increased tax, England does not have the same level of natural resources, also Norwegians have a higher salary on average but everything is super expensive and the taxes are ludicrous... If it weren't for high taxes, high salaries and low population, Norway's economy would be in the toilet.
The real problem is with trade, like you said it would be hindered but no matter how strong the UK is, we won't be able to trade freely with the EU, there will be import/export taxes on so many things that we sell so obviously, our trading partners in Europe will shift their attention to France, Germany and Spain... WHY? because they can trade with those countries for free, why spend extra money just to trade with the UK?
I know that Norway is 'doing OK' without the EU but their population is tiny compared to the UKs and they have Oil reserves that the EU wants to buy from them regardless of increased tax, England does not have the same level of natural resources, also Norwegians have a higher salary on average but everything is super expensive and the taxes are ludicrous... If it weren't for high taxes, high salaries and low population, Norway's economy would be in the toilet.
Original post by bearo99
First of all, stop taking the moral high-ground on this issue. I'm not part of a 'socio-politically uneducated preschool mentality', and neither should my realism of a growing volatile right-wing nationalism in Europe be branded as communist. But there we go. I never said democratically elected right-wing groups were destroying democracy either, just said they are a pile of ****.
The EU is a prime example of democracy WORKING. Compare the EU's 'bureaucracy' with anti-democracy authoritarianism of the past; we should be grateful of a democratic body that has been able to unite Europe following centuries of conflict. There's no ignorance in supporting a body that has helped grow democracy throughout Europe (Eastern Europe most notably); the ignorance is in leaving it as you believe in a sense of idiotic self-entitlement about Britain's world stature. Our place is working with other countries. Our place is working in Europe.
The EU is a prime example of democracy WORKING. Compare the EU's 'bureaucracy' with anti-democracy authoritarianism of the past; we should be grateful of a democratic body that has been able to unite Europe following centuries of conflict. There's no ignorance in supporting a body that has helped grow democracy throughout Europe (Eastern Europe most notably); the ignorance is in leaving it as you believe in a sense of idiotic self-entitlement about Britain's world stature. Our place is working with other countries. Our place is working in Europe.
Ah yes, the functioning democracy that's caused countless riots and helped get Ukraine invaded.
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