Why do leave voters keep saying the EU is undemocratic?
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Original post by XcitingStuart
I don't think that makes sense.
Were you also discrediting my maths in the OP (original post)?
Were you also discrediting my maths in the OP (original post)?
Yes Stuart, that's exactly what I was doing. You can't fool us with your scaremongering maths you racist bigot.
Original post by EuanF
It clearly isn't irrelevant, too large and it becomes impossible to represent people effectively without having an enormous and unwieldy parliament
too many chefs spoil the soup
Remain """humour"""
too many chefs spoil the soup
Remain """humour"""
It's "broth".
"Too many chefs spoil the broth."
Original post by XcitingStuart
Before people make any more posts, please can they actually read the entirety of OP (original post.)
It's kinda rude and offensive that I have to quote parts of that just because people never read it fully the first time.
It's kinda rude and offensive that I have to quote parts of that just because people never read it fully the first time.
You're as bad as an uber-PC SJW if you're actually feeling offended.
If you expect everyone to just agree with you then don't bother posting.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by NickLCFC
Yes Stuart, that's exactly what I was doing. You can't fool us with your scaremongering maths you racist bigot.
So you were pretending to be a leave voter and saying bad stuff?
But that doesn't even make sense, because you weren't even using the mathematics I used.
Do you know how to read the division sign(s)?
Original post by NickLCFC
Yes Stuart, that's exactly what I was doing. You can't fool us with your scaremongering maths you racist bigot.
um ????? the EU literally INVENTED MATHS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Original post by DorianGrayism
Brexit Maths
I really would not be surprised if most Brexiters hadn't the first clue about basic maths or statistics; they can't put two and two together and see the economic horror that leaving the EU spells, because it's not like leading global economists, who have spent their life calculating risk, profit, and developing models, know better than their precious politicians who of course aren't exploiting the public to push their own agendas?!
Original post by JamesN88
You're as bad as an uber-PC SJW if you're actually feeling offended.
If you expect everyone to just agree with you then don't bother posting.
If you expect everyone to just agree with you then don't bother posting.
I didn't silence your view by saying that did I?
It's like a teacher telling someone the formula whilst it's on the board.
I didn't expect people to disagree.
Am I not allowed to say how I feel on-
line now? Seriously it should take more than that to hush you up. No wonder this country is going downhill in parts.
Original post by EuanF
um ????? the EU literally INVENTED MATHS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The term "Mathematics" is derived from Ancient Greek, so yes the forefathers of a current EU member certainly helped to pioneer it.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by XcitingStuart
I didn't silence your view by saying that did I?
It's like a teacher telling someone the formula whilst it's on the board.
I didn't expect people to disagree.
Am I not allowed to say how I feel on-
line now? Seriously it should take more than that to hush you up. No wonder this country is going downhill in parts.
It's like a teacher telling someone the formula whilst it's on the board.
I didn't expect people to disagree.
Am I not allowed to say how I feel on-
line now? Seriously it should take more than that to hush you up. No wonder this country is going downhill in parts.
You're perfectly entitled to say how you feel, as we all are. However if you're posting in a debate forum not expecting to be challenged then you're on a wild goose chase.
It's your interpretation of something that's being questioned not the thing itself.
Original post by JamesN88
The term "Mathematics" is derived from Ancient Greek, so yes the forefathers of a current EU member certainly helped to pioneer it.
Don't think the Greeks would have been very happy if you showed them the EU. They were very much about statehood and democracy. Don't try to coopt them.
you just went full europhile. never go full europhile.
listen - you're only talking about 1 institution of power in the EU - the "democratically elected" (I'll discuss this in a second) institution only represents one third of legislative power. and that's if I don't count the EJC into the mix, because they are technically also a law making body in this respect in that they make case laws. the big mistake you're making here is that just because it has the name "parliament" and the members are elected, you assume they have power like any other democratically elected parliament.
next, regarding the UK in the EU parliament, we are ****ing nothing. our interests never win out. we are useless.
secondly, MEPs have no platform - they are just tokens. do you vote for them thinking "yes, I think I'll like to see more fishing and textiles regulations in the next term!"? no you ****ing don't. you vote on your ideological grounds. you vote labour because you're a bit of a leftie. you vote green because you're smoke green (just kidding) and you vote conservative because you're a little eurosceptic but not as much as a UKIP voter. you get the gist.
third and most important: the MEPs have VERY LITTLE power, if any real power at all. the EU parliament is basically the most undemocratic "democratic" parliament in the world. it's a rubber stamp. the EU can do what it wants usually without the parliament and can simply pass directives if not regulations. they (the parliament) can't propose or amend legislation. if we voted out every single MEP on an EU wide level tomorrow, do you think we'd be able to get rid of all the bad laws of the EU? nope, because in order to do that, the commission must make a proposition, and they're unelected, so how on earth would that happen? the cabinet of the EU (the commission) is appointed without any kind of electoral basis (e.g. who the **** is lord commissioner hill?) so how do you influence commission-level change in EU law? you don't. and you never will. this is why the EU can never reform democratically because the only way to change is via that commission, and the commission doesn't have to change because they want to preserve their power. they've proven this fact when the UK, their 2nd biggest member, threatened to leave if they didn't give them better negotiations for the referendum, and they STILL gave us basically nothing at all. the EU gives no shits about the UK or you.
saying the EU is democratic because of the EU parliament is like saying "north korea is democratic because the country has a parliament" - the only technical difference is that the EU holds ceremonial democratic elections, whereas north korea holds ceremonial undemocratic elections - the outcomes are the same though because MEPs have very little power to even use, and to contrast, north korean politicians do as they're told (while MEPs are kind of told to vote this or that way as well, seeing as they're not given any time to actually read or debate the incredibly complex laws of the EU)
TL;DR - the EU parliament is 1/3 of the institutions of law-making, they have no practical power and will never be able to actually change any laws when change must be proposed by the commission.
listen - you're only talking about 1 institution of power in the EU - the "democratically elected" (I'll discuss this in a second) institution only represents one third of legislative power. and that's if I don't count the EJC into the mix, because they are technically also a law making body in this respect in that they make case laws. the big mistake you're making here is that just because it has the name "parliament" and the members are elected, you assume they have power like any other democratically elected parliament.
next, regarding the UK in the EU parliament, we are ****ing nothing. our interests never win out. we are useless.
secondly, MEPs have no platform - they are just tokens. do you vote for them thinking "yes, I think I'll like to see more fishing and textiles regulations in the next term!"? no you ****ing don't. you vote on your ideological grounds. you vote labour because you're a bit of a leftie. you vote green because you're smoke green (just kidding) and you vote conservative because you're a little eurosceptic but not as much as a UKIP voter. you get the gist.
third and most important: the MEPs have VERY LITTLE power, if any real power at all. the EU parliament is basically the most undemocratic "democratic" parliament in the world. it's a rubber stamp. the EU can do what it wants usually without the parliament and can simply pass directives if not regulations. they (the parliament) can't propose or amend legislation. if we voted out every single MEP on an EU wide level tomorrow, do you think we'd be able to get rid of all the bad laws of the EU? nope, because in order to do that, the commission must make a proposition, and they're unelected, so how on earth would that happen? the cabinet of the EU (the commission) is appointed without any kind of electoral basis (e.g. who the **** is lord commissioner hill?) so how do you influence commission-level change in EU law? you don't. and you never will. this is why the EU can never reform democratically because the only way to change is via that commission, and the commission doesn't have to change because they want to preserve their power. they've proven this fact when the UK, their 2nd biggest member, threatened to leave if they didn't give them better negotiations for the referendum, and they STILL gave us basically nothing at all. the EU gives no shits about the UK or you.
saying the EU is democratic because of the EU parliament is like saying "north korea is democratic because the country has a parliament" - the only technical difference is that the EU holds ceremonial democratic elections, whereas north korea holds ceremonial undemocratic elections - the outcomes are the same though because MEPs have very little power to even use, and to contrast, north korean politicians do as they're told (while MEPs are kind of told to vote this or that way as well, seeing as they're not given any time to actually read or debate the incredibly complex laws of the EU)
TL;DR - the EU parliament is 1/3 of the institutions of law-making, they have no practical power and will never be able to actually change any laws when change must be proposed by the commission.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by XcitingStuart
Seemingly possible counter-arguments...
1) The UK has an unelected monarchy, and laws require Royal Assent.
2) The UK has an unelected House of Lords.
3) The UK has low turnout rates for MEPs.
Seemingly possible counter-arguments...
1) The UK has an unelected monarchy, and laws require Royal Assent.
2) The UK has an unelected House of Lords.
3) The UK has low turnout rates for MEPs.
How about even though we are currently under-represented in the EU (which is deliberate as smaller countries like Cyprus and Malta would have no or only 1 MEP and so could be ignored) our current government has a majority (which ultimately means as long as they don't have any rebels they have 100% control) yet they only got 37% of the vote not even close to a 50% + majority
Original post by XcitingStuart
1a) The UK only has 73 MEPs.
1b) There are altogether 751 MEPs.
1c) The UK only has 9.72% of the voting power. (73 / 751 x 100)
1d) The UK population constitutes 12.74% of the EU population.
Source 1, 2 & 3
2a) MEPs can't repeal or amend legislation.
2b) MEPs can't propose legislation; MEPs don't have the right to legislative initiative.
2c) The EC has one member per member state, but each member is bound by oath to represent the interest of the EU; not its state.
2d) On the premise that the UK's European Commissioner represented the UK's interest (which it doesn't), that's not representative for the UK's population size.
Seemingly possible counter-arguments...
1) The UK has an unelected monarchy, and laws require Royal Assent.
2) The UK has an unelected House of Lords.
3) The UK has low turnout rates for MEPs.
Criticism of those seemingly possible counter-arguments...
1) Royal Assent has a track record of just being a formality.
2) The House of Lords can only delay non-finance-related legislation for up to a year. The House of Lords is a revision chamber, and the UK has more pressing concerns about its quite democratic system.
3) I acknowledge that the UK would have more influence if turnout rates were higher, but that doesn't discount the democratic deficit in the EU. (I hope I've used the phrase "democratic deficit" in the correct context here.)
Feel free to dispute what I said.
Inb4 you used Wikipedia as a source?
Inb4 it doesn't matter
If you think democracy doesn't matter, where hast thou principles!?!?
1b) There are altogether 751 MEPs.
1c) The UK only has 9.72% of the voting power. (73 / 751 x 100)
1d) The UK population constitutes 12.74% of the EU population.
Source 1, 2 & 3
2a) MEPs can't repeal or amend legislation.
2b) MEPs can't propose legislation; MEPs don't have the right to legislative initiative.
2c) The EC has one member per member state, but each member is bound by oath to represent the interest of the EU; not its state.
2d) On the premise that the UK's European Commissioner represented the UK's interest (which it doesn't), that's not representative for the UK's population size.
Seemingly possible counter-arguments...
1) The UK has an unelected monarchy, and laws require Royal Assent.
2) The UK has an unelected House of Lords.
3) The UK has low turnout rates for MEPs.
Criticism of those seemingly possible counter-arguments...
1) Royal Assent has a track record of just being a formality.
2) The House of Lords can only delay non-finance-related legislation for up to a year. The House of Lords is a revision chamber, and the UK has more pressing concerns about its quite democratic system.
3) I acknowledge that the UK would have more influence if turnout rates were higher, but that doesn't discount the democratic deficit in the EU. (I hope I've used the phrase "democratic deficit" in the correct context here.)
Feel free to dispute what I said.
Inb4 you used Wikipedia as a source?
Inb4 it doesn't matter
If you think democracy doesn't matter, where hast thou principles!?!?
This is a very thoughtful article highlighting some of the positives of the EU
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexitvote/2016/05/27/dear-friends-this-is-why-i-will-vote-remain-in-the-referendum/
Original post by ByEeek
This is a very thoughtful article highlighting some of the positives of the EU
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexitvote/2016/05/27/dear-friends-this-is-why-i-will-vote-remain-in-the-referendum/
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexitvote/2016/05/27/dear-friends-this-is-why-i-will-vote-remain-in-the-referendum/
What an excellent refutation to it being undemocratic
Taken from the OP's source which actually counters the popular image of the European Commission that he's trying to reinforce:
"the European Parliament has an indirect right of legislative initiative that allows it to ask the Commission to submit a proposal.[1] Member states also have the right of legislative initiative concerning the Common Foreign and Security Policy. In fact only 10% of all legislative proposals come from the commission. Others proposals made by the Commission are initially requested by the member states, the parliament, or other organizations, for example NGOs"
Add in the fact that the Parliament has the power to dismiss them from office and the argument falls apart.
"the European Parliament has an indirect right of legislative initiative that allows it to ask the Commission to submit a proposal.[1] Member states also have the right of legislative initiative concerning the Common Foreign and Security Policy. In fact only 10% of all legislative proposals come from the commission. Others proposals made by the Commission are initially requested by the member states, the parliament, or other organizations, for example NGOs"
Add in the fact that the Parliament has the power to dismiss them from office and the argument falls apart.
Original post by JamesN88
Taken from the OP's source which actually counters the popular image of the European Commission that he's trying to reinforce:
"the European Parliament has an indirect right of legislative initiative that allows it to ask the Commission to submit a proposal.[1] Member states also have the right of legislative initiative concerning the Common Foreign and Security Policy. In fact only 10% of all legislative proposals come from the commission. Others proposals made by the Commission are initially requested by the member states, the parliament, or other organizations, for example NGOs"
Add in the fact that the Parliament has the power to dismiss them from office and the argument falls apart.
"the European Parliament has an indirect right of legislative initiative that allows it to ask the Commission to submit a proposal.[1] Member states also have the right of legislative initiative concerning the Common Foreign and Security Policy. In fact only 10% of all legislative proposals come from the commission. Others proposals made by the Commission are initially requested by the member states, the parliament, or other organizations, for example NGOs"
Add in the fact that the Parliament has the power to dismiss them from office and the argument falls apart.
"The parliament can ask kindly for something to get put forwards"
true democracy :^)
the commission has no obligation to listen to the parliament
Original post by EuanF
"The parliament can ask kindly for something to get put forwards"
true democracy :^)
the commission has no obligation to listen to the parliament
true democracy :^)
the commission has no obligation to listen to the parliament
And the Parliament can block every single proposal and bring the whole system to a standstill if they choose to. They don't. The Commission only exists with the consent of the Parliament.
Original post by ByEeek
This is a very thoughtful article highlighting some of the positives of the EU
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexitvote/2016/05/27/dear-friends-this-is-why-i-will-vote-remain-in-the-referendum/
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexitvote/2016/05/27/dear-friends-this-is-why-i-will-vote-remain-in-the-referendum/
I haven't read it in its entirety, but the author failed to address a few too many premises on which he worked; he jumped the gun.
He's also made a point working in the EU's interest, but not ours.
Some flawed economics...
One reason was just wrong
and another was selfish.
(Not a cop out but I really can't answer this fully right now. I can only say I disagree with a lot of it, or a lot of it isn't substantiated or explained enough to be valid.)
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by JamesN88
And the Parliament can block every single proposal and bring the whole system to a standstill if they choose to. They don't. The Commission only exists with the consent of the Parliament.
You really think the psychology works like that?
And that would require unity and collaboration between representatives / MEPs. You really expect too much of people in this regard.
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