The Student Room Group

What's more important, liberty or equality?

Poll

Which is closer to your heart?

Which is more important, liberty or equality? Lots of freedom for all, or compromising freedoms in-order to make society more equal? Individualism or collectivism? Anarchy or authoritarianism? Most of us lie somewhere in-between, but I think when push comes to shove, when we get down to the nitty-gritty, we'd all favour one over the other. Which do you hold more dear?

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Liberty. Equality is often imposed.
Liberty, I've read far too much dystopian fiction to ever side with equality.
Liberty :smile:
Reply 4
Liberty hands down
Liberty up to a point. There needs to be some level of equality of outcome, even if it is enforced via force, in order for liberty to be meaningful.
Reply 6
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
Liberty up to a point. There needs to be some level of equality of outcome, even if it is enforced via force, in order for liberty to be meaningful.


Of course. And there has to be some level of liberty in-order for equality to have benefits, or you just get North Korea.
Original post by Charlotte49
Liberty, I've read far too much dystopian fiction to ever side with equality.


Obviously not enough. Most modern dystopian fiction is set in some kind of futurist capitalist and corporatism society. The modern world is tending towards Brave New World (especially in the west) rather than 1984.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by KingBradly
Of course. And there has to be some level of liberty in-order for equality to have benefits, or you just get North Korea.
So fanatics at both ends are dangerous. I a think a more useful question is how should power be distributed.
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
Obviously not enough. Most modern dystonia fiction is set in some kind of futurist capitalist and corporatism society. The modern world is tending towards Brave New World (especially in the west) rather than 1984.


Much of what I've read has an enforced equality for anyone other than the upper elite, which is what I was thinking of. Society with complete equality for everyone probably couldn't exist and is hard to imagine, as is a completely liberated society.
Reply 10
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
So fanatics at both ends are dangerous. I a think a more useful question is how should power be distributed.


That isn't the point though. As I stated in the OP, most of us lie somewhere in-between, but I think when push comes to shove, when we get down to the nitty-gritty, we'd all favour one over the other. Orwell said that the 'The real division is not between conservatives and revolutionaries but between authoritarians and libertarians', and I think there's a lot of truth in that. I'm sure, considering he was a socialist, he doesn't really mean libertarians in the sense of free-market fundamentalists, but more just those who value liberty above all. However, I think a more evident divide is that between individualists and collectivists. Most people who value equality above liberty are collectivists, and think in a collectivist way. For example, people who complain about cultural appropriation are often taking a collectivist stance. If a white man gets dreadlocks, they are bothered because of how it effects the main collective who values that hairstyle beyond it merely being a fashion statement. However, the individualists stand by the individual's freedom to wear whatever he pleases, and feel that to confine such freedom in the name of the collective is a kind of tyranny of the majority.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by KingBradly
That isn't the point though. As I stated in the OP, most of us lie somewhere in-between, but I think when push comes to shove, when we get down to the nitty-gritty, we'd all favour one over the other. Orwell said that the 'The real division is not between conservatives and revolutionaries but between authoritarians and libertarians', and I think there's a lot of truth in that. I'm sure, considering he was a socialist, he doesn't really mean libertarians in the sense of free-market fundamentalists, but more just those who value liberty above all. However, I think a more evident divide is that between individualists and collectivists. Most people who value equality above liberty are collectivists, and think in a collectivist way. For example, people who complain about cultural appropriation are often taking a collectivist stance. If a white man gets dreadlocks, they are bothered because of how it effects the main collective who values that hairstyle beyond it merely being a fashion statement. However, the individualists stand by the individual's freedom to wear whatever he pleases, and feel that to confine such freedom in the name of the collective is a kind of tyranny of the majority.


It's all for the greater good :wink:
Original post by KingBradly
That isn't the point though. As I stated in the OP, most of us lie somewhere in-between, but I think when push comes to shove, when we get down to the nitty-gritty, we'd all favour one over the other. Orwell said that the 'The real division is not between conservatives and revolutionaries but between authoritarians and libertarians', and I think there's a lot of truth in that. I'm sure, considering he was a socialist, he doesn't really mean libertarians in the sense of free-market fundamentalists, but more just those who value liberty above all. However, I think a more evident divide is that between individualists and collectivists. Most people who value equality above liberty are collectivists, and think in a collectivist way. For example, people who complain about cultural appropriation are often taking a collectivist stance. If a white man gets dreadlocks, they are bothered because of how it effects the main collective who values that hairstyle beyond it merely being a fashion statement. However, the individualists stand by the individual's freedom to wear whatever he pleases, and feel that to confine such freedom in the name of the collective is a kind of tyranny of the majority.


All very good but if given the choice I would rather be a fed soviet citizen than a starving "free" homeless person in a "libertarian society".
Reply 13
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
All very good but if given the choice I would rather be a fed soviet citizen than a starving "free" homeless person in a "libertarian society".


I'd rather be homeless person with the opportunity to get a job or potentially start a career in whatever I please and make a life for myself, and be able to say and create whatever I like, than be a fed, but poorly fed, soviet citizen who can never expect or work towards a better life, and have very limited freedoms, and live in a world where creativity is stifled to the point that the world around me is dull and monotonous.
Original post by KingBradly
I'd rather be homeless person with the opportunity to get a job or potentially start a career in whatever I please and make a life for myself, and be able to say and create whatever I like, than be a fed, but poorly fed, soviet citizen who can never expect or work towards a better life, and have very limited freedoms, and live in a world where creativity is stifled to the point that the world around me is dull and monotonous.


ok
Reply 15
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
ok


Just saying
Original post by KingBradly
Just saying



I'm skepticle of the "opportunity" in such a situation. Liberty can only work if there is at least base level of equality of outcome.

"oppunitnity" as a response is like saying the lottery is a solution to poverty. I think my potential for being happy (which can only beign to happen if I am not permanently hungry) would be greater in a soviet country. I'm fairly smart so could probably find my way to whatever counts as middle class in the soviet system. maybe a science teacher or something.

Obviously I would rather live in a liberal democracy with strong welfare state. But that wasn't in the thought experiment.

Ideally I'd like to live in a society envisaged by some form of left wing guild socialism with a basic income. Or something like that. I think that would maximise my potential and freedom.
(edited 7 years ago)
Reply 17
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
I'm skepticle of the "opportunity" in such a situation. Liberty can only work if there is at least base level of equality of outcome.

"oppunitnity" as a response is like saying the lottery is a solution to poverty.


There's fiscal opportunity as much as you have something of worth. If you have arms and legs, you can probably get a job cleaning the streets. If you have a talent, people will pay for that.
If we're thinking in the sense of extremes, I suppose I would say liberty for the sake of everyone being equal 100% of the time would be more of a detriment than being helpful in a lot of senses probably, for reasons like the ones above.
However in a general every day sense, as a person who belongs to a lot of minority societal groups, I see equality as the more important one to be focused on right now.
one could not imagine an Equality Bell to inspire people...

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