Popular YouTube star Christina Grimmie Murdered Shot and Killed After Concert

OP

Original post by harry1208

The second link says a top 10 states with the highest homicide rates, and Florida is not in this list. Since 2010 669 people have been injured or killed due to gunfire in Florida.

I've already refuted the second link as being an error on my part for linking it but my points still stand.

According to this chart Florida has the third highest amount of Gun related crimes/violent acts in America even whilst having very strict gun laws.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States_by_state

Original post by harry1208

669 is ridiculous, and Americans are trying to argue that theres no ****ing problem in America with gun crime. In the whole of america in the past 5 years theres been 164,821 gun related deaths.

No one said there isn't a problem with Gun crimes in America. Maybe the cultural influences of Musicians and movies that profit of glorifying violence in youths should be called to question, but banning all guns like liberals suggest is not solving anything because criminals will always break laws.

Original post by harry1208

In the past 3 years 162,000 people have died from cancer IN THE ENTIRE WORLD.

Would you argue that cancer is a problem? Then argue that Guns ARE a problem!

And extremely flawed argument as according to Cancer research, people with cancer have about a 48-57% Mortality rate, so half of the people living with cancer right now will most likely die, and as of a 2012 count that number was 14.1 Million, so this was a really bad point my friend.

http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/health-professional/cancer-statistics/worldwide-cancer

Reply 45

harry1208

7

Original post by Listers

I've already refuted the second link as being an error on my part for linking it but my points still stand.

According to this chart Florida has the third highest amount of Gun related crimes/violent acts in America even whilst having very strict gun laws.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States_by_state

No one said there isn't a problem with Gun crimes in America. Maybe the cultural influences of Musicians and movies that profit of glorifying violence in youths should be called to question, but banning all guns like liberals suggest is not solving anything because criminals will always break laws.

And extremely flawed argument as according to Cancer research, people with cancer have about a 48-57% Mortality rate, so half of the people living with cancer right now will most likely die, and as of a 2012 count that number was 14.1 Million, so this was a really bad point my friend.

http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/health-professional/cancer-statistics/worldwide-cancer

Clearly my source was flawed, but my point still stands that there should be a complete ban of guns, now of course this isn't something that america can just do. But there hasn't been a decline in gun related deaths since 1986.

Just looked and my source was just in the UK. Still a terrible figure for gun deaths.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 46

mero22

9

I used to watch her youtube videos when I was 10. R.I.P

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 47

Original post by Listers

Right. Let's blame the guns for firing itself and killing someone innocent, not the idiotic psycho killer who did the crime.

Much easier to successfully realise your idiot psychoness with access to guns than no access.

Reply 48

OP

Original post by Betelgeuse-

Much easier to successfully realise your idiot psychoness with access to guns than no access.

Only a moron like yourself would think that having no access to guns would prevent criminals from getting them.

Drugs unlike guns in America are strictly forbidden but it's safe to say that the drug crimes are much much bigger than gun crimes.

Reply 49

Original post by Listers

Only a moron like yourself would think that having no access to guns would prevent criminals from getting them.

Drugs unlike guns in America are strictly forbidden but it's safe to say that the drug crimes are much much bigger than gun crimes.

Strawman. Organised Criminals would still get guns.. Fat, sweaty angry at life bitter disillusioned teenagers wouldn't (Or toddlers in their supermarket trolleys)

Reply 50

joey11223

20

Original post by Betelgeuse-

Much easier to successfully realise your idiot psychoness with access to guns than no access.

Yup and you'd think this would be pretty simple. It depends on the state obviously but some gun shows all you need is a basic form of ID to buy an arsenal...and it's not as if everyone checks ID. Nothing stopping you from crossing state lines after that.

Making guns illegal would make it more difficult but obviously not impossible for someone to get a gun, however their high availability means on the spur of the moment, it's easier to grab a firearm.

I mean lets say the US and England both have their share of psychos like this, then...

"There were 372 mass shootings in the US in 2015, killing 475 people and wounding 1,870, according to the Mass Shooting Tracker, which catalogues such incidents. A mass shooting is defined as a single shooting incident which kills or injures four or more people, including the assailant."

Now if Listers is correct that making guns harder to get/illegal wouldn't significantly impact such crimes (as the person would easily be able to acquire one illegally) , one would expect a somewhat similiar stat for the UK.

Our population is about a fifth of the USA's. So we'd expect about 73 of these shooting events in a year.

Curiously I can't find a decent stat on our mass shootings, maybe because we use different definitions?

But the average number of gun related homicides for the past 15 years (2012 and before) is 62. In America their centre for disease control said there were 11,078 of such homicides, the FBI refuting it a little saying it was 8,874. If we take the lower number of murders via gun. You'd have thought ours would be around 1750ish, so it would seem the illegality and lack of access to firearms does impact how they're used to kill people.

Now in fairness you're about 25% more likely to be knifed here than in the USA, but that doesn't make much of a dent into the massive difference in the gun crime rates.

That or we have much less people so violently inclined the UK.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 51

OP

Original post by Betelgeuse-

Strawman. Organised Criminals would still get guns.. Fat, sweaty angry at life bitter disillusioned teenagers wouldn't

Pretty sure you do not know what a straw man is because my previous statement wasn't. And are you really to thick to realise that members of what you called organised crime involves sweaty angry disillusioned teenagers to do the dirty work the top members won't?

Did you even read what you wrote before posting it?

Reply 52

Original post by Listers

Pretty sure you do not know what a straw man is because my previous statement wasn't. And are you really to thick to realise that members of what you called organised crime involves sweaty angry disillusioned teenagers to do the dirty work the top members won't?

Did you even read what you wrote before posting it?

Original post by Betelgeuse-

Much easier to successfully realise your idiot psychoness with access to guns than no access.

Original post by Listers

Only a moron like yourself would think that having no access to guns would prevent criminals from getting them.

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent.

You can keep saying I am thick, and wrong... but i will just hand your arse to you and make you look like the ignorant jumped up fool you appear to be.

COME AT ME

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 53

OP

Original post by joey11223

Yup and you'd think this would be pretty simple. It depends on the state obviously but some gun shows all you need is a basic form of ID to buy an arsenal...and it's not as if everyone checks ID. Nothing stopping you from crossing state lines after that.

Making guns illegal would make it more difficult but obviously not impossible for someone to get a gun, however their high availability means on the spur of the moment, it's easier to grab a firearm.

I mean lets say the US and England both have their share of psychos like this, then...

"There were 372 mass shootings in the US in 2015, killing 475 people and wounding 1,870, according to the Mass Shooting Tracker, which catalogues such incidents. A mass shooting is defined as a single shooting incident which kills or injures four or more people, including the assailant."

Now if Listers is correct that making guns harder to get/illegal wouldn't significantly impact such crimes (as the person would easily be able to acquire one illegally) , one would expect a somewhat similiar stat for the UK.

Our population is about a fifth of the USA's. So we'd expect about 73 of these shooting events in a year.

Curiously I can't find a decent stat on our mass shootings, maybe because we use different definitions?

But the average number of gun related homicides for the past 15 years (2012 and before) is 62. In America their centre for disease control said there were 11,078 of such homicides, the FBI refuting it a little saying it was 8,874. If we take the lower number of murders via gun. You'd have thought ours would be around 1750ish, so it would seem the illegality and lack of access to firearms does impact how they're used to kill people.

That or we have much less people so violently inclined the UK.

There are soon many errors in what you are saying that I do not even know where to start.

For starters you are using the rate of crime in America, a country in a different continent with a different culture to a traditional European country like England, adjusting the percentages to get a figure, rather than use the stats already present in the UK to draw a conclusion. WOW just wow.

Okay lets talk about England

homicide rates before and after a ban, take the case of the handgun ban in England and Wales in January 1997 here see Table 1.01 and the column marked “Offences currently recorded as homicide per million population,”. After the ban, clearly homicide rates bounce around over time, but there is only one year (2010) where the homicide rate is lower than it was in 1996. The immediate effect was about a 50 percent increase in homicide rates. So you're wrong.

Firearm homicide rate had almost doubled between 1996 and 2002 (see here p. 11). The homicide and firearm homicide rates only began falling when there was a large increase in the number of police officers during 2003 and 2004. Despite the huge increase in the number of police, the murder rate still remained slightly higher than the immediate pre-ban rate.

Everything sourced here.

http://crimeresearch.org/2013/12/murder-and-homicide-rates-before-and-after-gun-bans/

Reply 54

OP

Original post by Betelgeuse-

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent.

You can keep saying I am thick, and wrong... but i will just hand your arse to you and make you look like the ignorant jumped up fool you appear to be.

COME AT ME

So where was the informal fallacy presented, and why didn't you say anything about my statement about how sweaty men like the killer are what Organised criminals use to do the dirty work?

Reply 55

moggis

18

Original post by Listers

1. It wasn't the current US Government that made it so easy to obtain a gun, it was the founding fathers to allow their people to protect themselves against Tyranny.

2. This is a false statement because a criminal would still be able to obtain a gun even if there were laws preventing them from doing so.

It's also not a coincidence that as soon as countries like Turkey, the Soviet union, Australia, Uganda, Germany (during WW2) And many others established strict gun laws that a massive amount of people couldn't fight and defend themselves allowing criminals to kill them at will

In fact it could be a coincidence.

Reply 56

moggis

18

Original post by harry1208

The second link says a top 10 states with the highest homicide rates, and Florida is not in this list. Since 2010 669 people have been injured or killed due to gunfire in Florida. 669 is ridiculous, and Americans are trying to argue that theres no ****ing problem in America with gun crime. In the whole of america in the past 5 years theres been 164,821 gun related deaths.

In the past 3 years 162,000 people have died from cancer IN THE ENTIRE WORLD.

Would you argue that cancer is a problem? Then argue that Guns ARE a problem!

I'm pretty sure more than that number have died of cancer

Reply 57

Original post by Listers

So where was the informal fallacy presented, and why didn't you say anything about my statement about how sweaty men like the killer are what Organised criminals use to do the dirty work?

I have just shown you. You refuted an argument I did not propose. Very simple.

Drug cartels and organised traffickers dont recruit emotionally unstable sweaty kids who are mad at the world. Kids who have grown up poor maybe.. These kids arent going to go shooting up schools or murdering youtube stars are they?

Do you think Elliot rodgers for example would have been recruited by a big criminal gang? Do you think jilted ex lovers will instantly be recruited by these gangs? Take guns out the hands of disallusioned bitter and sometimes mentally ill people and you will have less murders because killing becomes much more difficult.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 58

OP

Original post by Betelgeuse-

I have just shown you. You refuted an argument I did not propose. Very simple.

Drug cartels and organised traffickers dont recruit emotionally unstable sweaty kids who are mad at the world. Kids who have grown up poor maybe.. These kids arent going to go shooting up schools or murdering youtube stars are they?

Do you think Elliot rodgers for example would have been recruited by a big criminal gang? Do you think jilted ex lovers will instantly be recruited by these gangs? Take guns out the hands of disallusioned bitter and sometimes mentally ill people and you will have less murders because killing becomes much more difficult.

The details of the nature of the killer haven't been brought forward so I'm not sure where you're getting all this emotional crap from.

And even if he was an emotional crazy guy who is mad at the world for some reason, there's not much stopping him fro still obtaining an illegal firearm, this is America we are talking about, you could probably post an ad on craigslist, or find someone on the street who would happily give you one.

"Take guns out the hands of disallusioned bitter and sometimes mentally ill people and you will have less murders because killing becomes much more difficult"

No one disagreed with that so I'm not sure why you even said it.

Reply 59

Tsrsarahhhh