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Original post by Plantagenet Crown
Not so. Quran 5:33 for example clearly states the punishment for those who wage war against Allah and contains no reference to it only being applicable to that time. Ibn Kathir's tafsir on this excerpt states that "wage war" includes disbelief in Islam.


Ibn Kathir was also a scholar from the 1300s. Tensions between religious groups were high during this period especially because of the crusades so those interpretations should be considered outdated for modern beliefs.
Original post by Samii123
Ibn Kathir was also a scholar from the 1300s. Tensions between religious groups were high during this period especially because of the crusades so those interpretations should be considered outdated for modern beliefs.


Ibn Kathir's tafsir is one of the most widely used in the Islamic world today. Where is your evidence his commentaries are unreliable. And once again, the verse in question makes absolutely no reference to the Crusades or to any specific time periods that those punishments should apply to.
Original post by 123456789ss
I think it's an important discussion that is slowly and slowly becoming more relevant as the hateful religion that is Islam grows and grows within our country. A lot of Muslims are brainwashed and so challenging their religion will hopefully provoke them to think twice.

I think you got the wrong..
Given the current political climate I would not be surprised if its true. They should get another 5% extra for having to endure Christmas and Easter holidays.
Original post by Plantagenet Crown
Ibn Kathir's tafsir is one of the most widely used in the Islamic world today. Where is your evidence his commentaries are unreliable. And once again, the verse in question makes absolutely no reference to the Crusades or to any specific time periods that those punishments should apply to.


There are much more modern Tafsir written by Muslim Scholars today which do not make all the same comments of contemporary Tafsir like Ibn Kathir's. Many scholars consider the modern Tafsir to be a better representation of Islam. Also I never said that the quote in question mentioned time periods or the crusades, I was inferring that Ibn Kathir's interpretation could have easily been influenced by the events of that time period.
Original post by Pyongyang123
Christianity has had it's issues, it nowhere near the scale of Islam and Christian countries today are very liberal to Muslims, even though we'd get persecuted in an Islamic country. On the other hand, Buddhism and Sikhism are completely peaceful.


BUDDHISM PEACEFUL?????????????????????!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Errrrr hello, wake up to reality man! Have you not heard of the ma ba tha, a Buddhist organisation that are behind so many attacks, including bombings in Japan.
Oh and don't get me started on the atrocities that lots of Buddhist monks have committed in the arakan state in Burma.

Sikhism peaceful, err no!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Have you not heard of the separatist Sikh terrorists in northern India?
In actual fact they blew up an Air India plane South west of Ireland.......Killing all on board!!!!

Christianity peaceful..............FACEPALM.. ............ SMH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just watch this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO5rbPaHUFU

Oh and before anyone accuses me of Racism, No im simply saying that some members of these religions are also terrorists...... IM not Generalising!
Original post by 713Wave
BUDDHISM PEACEFUL?????????????????????!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Errrrr hello, wake up to reality man! Have you not heard of the ma ba tha, a Buddhist organisation that are behind so many attacks, including bombings in Japan.
Oh and don't get me started on the atrocities that lots of Buddhist monks have committed in the arakan state in Burma.

Sikhism peaceful, err no!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Have you not heard of the separatist Sikh terrorists in northern India?
In actual fact they blew up an Air India plane South west of Ireland.......Killing all on board!!!!

Christianity peaceful..............FACEPALM.. ............ SMH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just watch this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO5rbPaHUFU

Oh and before anyone accuses me of Racism, No im simply saying that some members of these religions are also terrorists...... IM not Generalising!



Exactly! Just because the news isn't showing it doesn't mean its not happening.
Original post by Samii123
There are much more modern Tafsir written by Muslim Scholars today which do not make all the same comments of contemporary Tafsir like Ibn Kathir's. Many scholars consider the modern Tafsir to be a better representation of Islam. Also I never said that the quote in question mentioned time periods or the crusades, I was inferring that Ibn Kathir's interpretation could have easily been influenced by the events of that time period.


As far as I know most scholars consider Kathir's tafsir to be perfectly adequate in explaining the verses. Your inferral has no scriptural evidence though, you can't just make up an explanation to suit you, we must go by what's actually in the verse. And it very clearly states the punishment for those who don't accept Islam.
Original post by Plantagenet Crown
As far as I know most scholars consider Kathir's tafsir to be perfectly adequate in explaining the verses. Your inferral has no scriptural evidence though, you can't just make up an explanation to suit you, we must go by what's actually in the verse. And it very clearly states the punishment for those who don't accept Islam.


I was referring to a different quote. If you are talking about the verse 5:33 then the explanation for this is much deeper then the actual quote. One must understand the whole Qur'an before picking out and interpreting quotes. In the Qur'an 20:71 it mentions the tyrant Pharaoh saying to those who turned to the prophet that he will cut off their hands and feet alternately. 5:33 is not actually saying that Allah is commanding that non believers should have this punishment carried out by Muslims, it is saying that this is the punishment that those non believers deserve because they wished it upon others but it does not actually mean that they should receive the punishment. 5:32 also says that anyone who kills a innocent man has killed all of mankind so this is further confirmation that 5:33 was referring to Pharaoh's threats. There are many sites that talk about this quote in further detail but the quotes should never be interpreted by themselves alone but should be interpreted with the full knowledge of the Qur'an or it leads to such misinterpretations
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Samii123
I was referring to a different quote. If you are talking about the verse 5:33 then the explanation for this is much deeper then the actual quote. One must understand the whole Qur'an before picking out and interpreting quotes. In the Qur'an 20:71 it mentions the tyrant Pharaoh saying to those who turned to the prophet that he will cut off their hands and feet alternately. 5:33 is not actually saying that Allah is commanding that non believers should have this punishment carried out by Muslims, it is saying that this is the punishment that those non believers deserve because they wished it upon others but it does not actually mean that they should receive the punishment. There are many sites that talk about this quote in further detail but the quotes should never be interpreted by themselves alone but should be interpreted with the full knowledge of the Qur'an or it leads to such misinterpretations


But if a verse mentions a Pharaoh then it obviously referring to a time when there are Pharaohs. 5:33 does not mention any specifics about that time period. And as Kathir says that "wage war" includes disbelief, it must mean that that verse is relevant for all time, as rejecting Islam isn't something that can only be done in a certain period.
I'm not sure, maybe you could apply for extreme circumstances / special consideration?

If they accept your appeal, they can give your % an extra 0-5%, but you won't know if they gave you 3%, 2% or 0%, they'll just say 'was given special consideration' if they think it's serious enough.

Spoiler

Original post by Plantagenet Crown
But if a verse mentions a Pharaoh then it obviously referring to a time when there are Pharaohs. 5:33 does not mention any specifics about that time period. And as Kathir says that "wage war" includes disbelief, it must mean that that verse is relevant for all time, as rejecting Islam isn't something that can only be done in a certain period.


You have not understood the point i was attempting to convey as how the punishment is not actually commanded by Allah to use on non believers. This website will explain it better than I can - http://www.quranicpath.com/finerpoints/cut_hands_feet.html
Original post by Samii123
You have not understood the point i was attempting to convey as how the punishment is not actually commanded by Allah to use on non believers. This website will explain it better than I can - http://www.quranicpath.com/finerpoints/cut_hands_feet.html


That link does not explain it at all because it is attempting to conflate two separate verses which aren't related. One is about the pharaohs and 5:33 isn't. And as I already explained, "wage war" includes disbelief so the verse is indeed encouraging that punishment to be inflicted upon non-Muslims.
Original post by hellodave5
That is probably true. Will take a while, but religious beliefs in the West are forced to modernise, alongside the rest of our culture (with a considerable decline in religiosity/religious belief). On the other hand societies that are Islamic have a less progressive society - for reasons beyond me; perhaps history of autocratic rule and suppression of rights and low education generally. So while I think this is true, I'm not sure its due to the religion in itself - even though culture and religion are hard to separate.

You are right in that it is environmental factors, as I suggested. But there is also likely a strong genetic component. This genetic component will likely be switched on or off, to some degree, based on environmental factors. But as you say, the extent to which both are responsible is currently not known as far as I am aware. Such low level processes are hard to pin down to specific processes - but it is likely that mediating effects of hormones play a considerable role.


It may not be the religion itself,but it plays are huge role.Even in western countries, the Islamic communities are sometimes called ' stuck in the stone age' due to the intolerance of acts which gradually become socially acceptable.

To clarify, the Qur'an was not reveled in the stone age, it is a figure of speech
Original post by Plantagenet Crown
That link does not explain it at all because it is attempting to conflate two separate verses which aren't related. One is about the pharaohs and 5:33 isn't. And as I already explained, "wage war" includes disbelief so the verse is indeed encouraging that punishment to be inflicted upon non-Muslims.


They are related because the exact same punishment is mentioned twice once by Pharoah and the other by Allah so it it would be logical to say that they are interconnected. Anyway I will not debate this any further as I have things to do so goodbye.
Original post by Samii123
They are related because the exact same punishment is mentioned twice once by Pharoah and the other by Allah so it it would be logical to say that they are interconnected. Anyway I will not debate this any further as I have things to do so goodbye.


Just because they mention the same punishment does not mean they're related, just like two different books containing the same word doesn't mean they're related either. Ibn Kathir's tafsir makes 5:33 very clear in its implications.
Reply 116
Original post by Stormz1
Only reason islam has failed to develop is because the Qur'an has not changed. Check out Birmingham discovery of oldest Qur'an. Society's law and norm always changes but God's remains the same. It now socially acceptable to be gay. Christianty has adapted it welcoming gays.Islam? Still the same.

I have no issues with gay nor does islam - Quran 109.
Its the fact that you cannot be a gay Muslim. There are investigations as to whether being gay is in your genes or not. One identical twin might be gay whereas the other is not (they have the same genes so it suggests that its no upto genes but preference). Regradless as to whether its upto genes, all islam states is that you should control you desires i.e lust/being gay because it is all a test. So being gay is a test for that person to see how well that person copes.


I understand that i have entered dangerous area so bring in the hate and i'll try to nicely answer all questions to the best of my ability.


Regarding the part where you say the quran has not changed. If the quran changed then it would not be the orginal book which was from god would it. It's like saying lets change everything that has actually happened in history.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Plantagenet Crown
That link does not explain it at all because it is attempting to conflate two separate verses which aren't related. One is about the pharaohs and 5:33 isn't. And as I already explained, "wage war" includes disbelief so the verse is indeed encouraging that punishment to be inflicted upon non-Muslims.


Before i begin, a tafsir is an interpretation of the Qur'an and will not always be correct. As for verse 5:33 one must look at verse 5:32 and verse 5:34

Here we see god telling us the severity of killing - it is as though he has killed all of mankind. Then we see god telling us severe punishments. And then we have God saying leave those who have repented.

What is meant by wage war? God says wage war against Allah (God) and his messenger. This is important because today we have no messenger and therefore can't implement this reason. By waging war against the messenger god says you are indirectly waging war against him. Alternatively, one can say that those who go against the prophets teaching is doing something similar, but he must also cause corruption on the land, in modern English,terrorism, this to some extent alone can be considered waging war with Allah - as it is being cocky thinking you wouldn't be punished.

First and foremost, look at Quran 109. Here we see when we have opposing views,we are simply meant to say you have your way i have mine.

Secondly, the verse says those who wage war, i.e those who begin a war, that does not mean we run around killing people for not following Islam as you are implying because by simply not believing in God is not waging war. Similarly,not being an American citizen is not waging war against america. But for those who do war against america (treason), what happens? occasionally death sentence or exile/imprisonment wit a hefty fine. Both of which are punishments mentioned by God.

As for the part cut the hand or feet off let me explain my view on this. If someone had a gun in their hand and was about to shoot you, instead of taking their lived shoot the arm. That way they live, are able to repent,and you have not slayed all of mankind.

Another thing to understand is the context of which the verse was revealed. This verse sent a strong message to other desert tribes who were accustomed to raiding and attacking nearby villages and tribes. This punishment was done for the security of the Muslim community, living in a very dangerous time with no formal legal system governing the arabian tribes. The situation is incomparable to modern times where governments have strong control over their territories - in arabia there existed a tribalistic anarchy.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Stormz1
Before i begin, a tafsir is an interpretation of the Qur'an and will not always be correct. As for verse 5:33 one must look at verse 5:32 and verse 5:34

Here we see god telling us the severity of killing - it is as though he has killed all of mankind. Then we see god telling us severe punishments. And then we have God saying leave those who have repented.

What is meant by wage war? God says wage war against Allah (God) and his messenger. This is important because today we have no messenger and therefore can't implement this reason. By waging war against the messenger god says you are indirectly waging war against him. Alternatively, one can say that those who go against the prophets teaching is doing something similar, but the must also cause corruption on the land, in modern English,terrorism, this to some extent alone can be considered waging war with Allah - as it is being cocky thinking you wouldn't be punished.

First and foremost, look at Quran 109. Here we see when we have opposing views,we are simply meant to say you have your way i have mine.

Secondly, the verse says those who wage war, i.e those who begin a war, that does not mean we run around killing people for not following Islam as you are implying because by simply not believing in God is not waging war. Similarly,not being an American citizen is not waging war against america. But for those who do war against america (treason), what happens, occasionally death sentence or exile. Both of which are punishments mentioned by God.

As for the part cut the hand or feet off let me explain my view on this. If someone had a gun in their hand and was about to shoot you, instead of taking their lived shoot the arm. That way they live, are able to repent,and you have not slayed all of mankind.

Another thing to understand is the context of which the verse was revealed. This verse sent a strong message to other desert tribes who were accustomed to raiding and attacking nearby villages and tribes. This punishment was done for the security of the Muslim community, living in a very dangerous time with no formal legal system governing the arabian tribes. The situation is incomparable to modern times where governments have strong control over their territories - in arabia there existed a tribalistic anarchy.


What Muslims do or don't do isn't what's being discussed here, rather what the Quran states. And verse 5:33 unequivocally prescribes death for those who disbelieve in Allah as explained by Ibn Kathir. Noting you have said has refuted that.
(edited 7 years ago)
You really are gullible aren't you?

Yet another Urban Myth that is total bunkum.

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