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Why do people believe in "institutional racism"?
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Original post by Maker
Yes obviously.
Yes I know it is, I'm just wondering if she thinks it is as well because that actually happens to
Original post by drogon
When people of authority have admitted institutionalised racism is a problem, i think its safe to say it exists.
I think before 1950 there was hardly any immigrants in the UK (apart from Irish).
Stephen Lawrence was murdered in the 1990s
An institution, I would suggest, might take centuries to develop (eg Institution of marriage).
Thus to call something "institutionalised" sort of implies there is this practice in society that has been in society for, perhaps hundreds of years.
So, is it really possible to have "institutionalised" racism? I would suggest, probably not. You can have racists within institutions in positions of power or racists within youth gangs (who have always "institutionally" picked fights with other youth gangs who look different).
But to say its been here for "centuries" in the UK institutions is probably taking it too far. Disraeli had a very foreign sounding name, looked foreign, but still he got just as many votes as Gladstone - and this was in the nineteenth century!!
There simply have not been enough immigrants to the UK for this "institutionalised" thingie to have developed over the centuries. Immigrants have only really been here in any numbers from the 1950s.
(edited 7 years ago)
The shooting of 12 year old Tamir Rice, who was black, is proof, I would say, of the institutional racism that exists, mainly in the american law enforcement system. A 911 caller, who was sitting in a gazebo nearby the event, called the police stating their concern of a juvenile with a gun, which they said was 'probably fake' twice during the call. Apparently the 911 responder asked if the juvenile was black or white, three times, and did not pass information onto the officers that the gun was most likely fake.
When the officers arrived at the scene, Tamir was siting in the gazebo, talking on his mobile. As soon as the police car reached the scene, and as it was slowing down, one of the police officers asked Tamir to put his hands up, and shot him from the car as it was still stopping.
Neither of the police officers in the car rushed to give first aid, and it wasn't until 4 minutes after the shooting, when two FBI agents who were working nearby arrived on the scene, that first aid was given and an ambulance was called.
When Tamir's 14 year old sister hear the shot, she ran over to her brother and was forced to the ground and placed in handcuffs by the police, saying she would be arrested if she didn't calm down.
When the officers arrived at the scene, Tamir was siting in the gazebo, talking on his mobile. As soon as the police car reached the scene, and as it was slowing down, one of the police officers asked Tamir to put his hands up, and shot him from the car as it was still stopping.
Neither of the police officers in the car rushed to give first aid, and it wasn't until 4 minutes after the shooting, when two FBI agents who were working nearby arrived on the scene, that first aid was given and an ambulance was called.
When Tamir's 14 year old sister hear the shot, she ran over to her brother and was forced to the ground and placed in handcuffs by the police, saying she would be arrested if she didn't calm down.
Original post by epage
The shooting of 12 year old Tamir Rice, who was black, is proof, I would say, of the institutional racism that exists, mainly in the american law enforcement system. A 911 caller, who was sitting in a gazebo nearby the event, called the police stating their concern of a juvenile with a gun, which they said was 'probably fake' twice during the call. Apparently the 911 responder asked if the juvenile was black or white, three times, and did not pass information onto the officers that the gun was most likely fake.
When the officers arrived at the scene, Tamir was siting in the gazebo, talking on his mobile. As soon as the police car reached the scene, and as it was slowing down, one of the police officers asked Tamir to put his hands up, and shot him from the car as it was still stopping.
Neither of the police officers in the car rushed to give first aid, and it wasn't until 4 minutes after the shooting, when two FBI agents who were working nearby arrived on the scene, that first aid was given and an ambulance was called.
When Tamir's 14 year old sister hear the shot, she ran over to her brother and was forced to the ground and placed in handcuffs by the police, saying she would be arrested if she didn't calm down.
When the officers arrived at the scene, Tamir was siting in the gazebo, talking on his mobile. As soon as the police car reached the scene, and as it was slowing down, one of the police officers asked Tamir to put his hands up, and shot him from the car as it was still stopping.
Neither of the police officers in the car rushed to give first aid, and it wasn't until 4 minutes after the shooting, when two FBI agents who were working nearby arrived on the scene, that first aid was given and an ambulance was called.
When Tamir's 14 year old sister hear the shot, she ran over to her brother and was forced to the ground and placed in handcuffs by the police, saying she would be arrested if she didn't calm down.
Grow up!
this is the UK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
you can't bung in USA examples because its a totally different thing.
Institutional racism exists in the USA because it was multi-ethnic society from day one.
The UK has only had immigrants of any number from the 1950s.
Its not possible to get institutionalised anything in such a short period of time.
You get racism from racists but you do not get institutionalisation without centuries of stuff going on
There were no slaves here, there was no segregation here, its like comparing chalk and cheese.
In the UK you get racists, not institutions that are racist.
There has not been time..
Take typical example.
Go and get an IT job in an INVESTMENT BANK in the CITY - you will note that well over HALF of the people there will be from asia. If anything, being a Brit , in IT, is a disadvantage. INVESTMENT BANKING is basically the UK.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by The Roast
"Explain to me why black kids aren't graduating high school and why black kids are shooting eachother in significantly higher rates than white kids... why 13% of the population of the US is responsible for 50% of murders?"
Again this is a response made by Ben Shapiro.
"[...] Is America more racist now than it was in the 1960s?"
Again this is a response made by Ben Shapiro.
"[...] Is America more racist now than it was in the 1960s?"
I am not sure about America but in the U.K there are more African- Black students passing than white students. Unfortunaltely they treat this as an epidemic here and organise 'British-Only' school trips to supprt white students because having POC achieving higher grades seems insulting...
This chart is complete crap in most cases though.... it really depends on an induvidal rather than a sweeping generalisation.
Original post by FredOrJohn
Grow up!
this is the UK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
you can't bung in USA examples because its a totally different thing.
Institutional racism exists in the USA because it was multi-ethnic society from day one.
The UK has only had immigrants of any number from the 1950s.
Its not possible to get institutionalised anything in such a short period of time.
You get racism from racists but you do not get institutionalisation without centuries of stuff going on
There were no slaves here, there was no segregation here, its like comparing chalk and cheese.
In the UK you get racists, not institutions that are racist.
There has not been time..
Take typical example.
Go and get an IT job in an INVESTMENT BANK in the CITY - you will note that well over HALF of the people there will be from asia. If anything, being a Brit , in IT, is a disadvantage. INVESTMENT BANKING is basically the UK.
this is the UK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
you can't bung in USA examples because its a totally different thing.
Institutional racism exists in the USA because it was multi-ethnic society from day one.
The UK has only had immigrants of any number from the 1950s.
Its not possible to get institutionalised anything in such a short period of time.
You get racism from racists but you do not get institutionalisation without centuries of stuff going on
There were no slaves here, there was no segregation here, its like comparing chalk and cheese.
In the UK you get racists, not institutions that are racist.
There has not been time..
Take typical example.
Go and get an IT job in an INVESTMENT BANK in the CITY - you will note that well over HALF of the people there will be from asia. If anything, being a Brit , in IT, is a disadvantage. INVESTMENT BANKING is basically the UK.
What ...,. there were slaves in Britain
http://www.history.ac.uk/ihr/Focus/Slavery/articles/sherwood.htmlOriginal post by FredOrJohn
Grow up!
this is the UK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
you can't bung in USA examples because its a totally different thing.
Institutional racism exists in the USA because it was multi-ethnic society from day one.
The UK has only had immigrants of any number from the 1950s.
Its not possible to get institutionalised anything in such a short period of time.
You get racism from racists but you do not get institutionalisation without centuries of stuff going on
There were no slaves here, there was no segregation here, its like comparing chalk and cheese.
In the UK you get racists, not institutions that are racist.
There has not been time..
Take typical example.
Go and get an IT job in an INVESTMENT BANK in the CITY - you will note that well over HALF of the people there will be from asia. If anything, being a Brit , in IT, is a disadvantage. INVESTMENT BANKING is basically the UK.
this is the UK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
you can't bung in USA examples because its a totally different thing.
Institutional racism exists in the USA because it was multi-ethnic society from day one.
The UK has only had immigrants of any number from the 1950s.
Its not possible to get institutionalised anything in such a short period of time.
You get racism from racists but you do not get institutionalisation without centuries of stuff going on
There were no slaves here, there was no segregation here, its like comparing chalk and cheese.
In the UK you get racists, not institutions that are racist.
There has not been time..
Take typical example.
Go and get an IT job in an INVESTMENT BANK in the CITY - you will note that well over HALF of the people there will be from asia. If anything, being a Brit , in IT, is a disadvantage. INVESTMENT BANKING is basically the UK.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/12/british-history-slavery-buried-scale-revealed
actually research next time you spout nonesense
Original post by Listers
What about when Asian and African Employers offer jobs to people from their own race rather than white people with the same qualifications.
Is that racist?
Is that racist?
Yes, of course. Unfortunately for Asians and Africans, the vast majority of employers in England are not Asian or African though.
Original post by FredOrJohn
Grow up!
this is the UK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
you can't bung in USA examples because its a totally different thing.
Institutional racism exists in the USA because it was multi-ethnic society from day one.
The UK has only had immigrants of any number from the 1950s.
Its not possible to get institutionalised anything in such a short period of time.
You get racism from racists but you do not get institutionalisation without centuries of stuff going on
There were no slaves here, there was no segregation here, its like comparing chalk and cheese.
In the UK you get racists, not institutions that are racist.
There has not been time..
Take typical example.
Go and get an IT job in an INVESTMENT BANK in the CITY - you will note that well over HALF of the people there will be from asia. If anything, being a Brit , in IT, is a disadvantage. INVESTMENT BANKING is basically the UK.
this is the UK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
you can't bung in USA examples because its a totally different thing.
Institutional racism exists in the USA because it was multi-ethnic society from day one.
The UK has only had immigrants of any number from the 1950s.
Its not possible to get institutionalised anything in such a short period of time.
You get racism from racists but you do not get institutionalisation without centuries of stuff going on
There were no slaves here, there was no segregation here, its like comparing chalk and cheese.
In the UK you get racists, not institutions that are racist.
There has not been time..
Take typical example.
Go and get an IT job in an INVESTMENT BANK in the CITY - you will note that well over HALF of the people there will be from asia. If anything, being a Brit , in IT, is a disadvantage. INVESTMENT BANKING is basically the UK.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_British_Isles jump to the enslaved africans section.
Original post by ValkyrieScythe
What ...,. there were slaves in Britain http://www.history.ac.uk/ihr/Focus/Slavery/articles/sherwood.html
http://www.history.ac.uk/ihr/Focus/Slavery/articles/sherwood.htmlI read the link. It said: "there was no evidence whatsoever that black people in the UK in centuries gone by were slaves and that at best they numbered 10k (not even 0.1% of pop - not statistically significant). I am well aware that we all know that pocahontas lived, married and died here.. Its your link not mine
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by llys
Yes, of course. Unfortunately for Asians and Africans, the vast majority of employers in England are not Asian or African though.
I guess you mean the big paying jobs in IT in the City or jobs like doctors.
If so, I would suggest to you that you are far more likely (by miles and miles and miles)....... I'm not saying colour has anything to do with it, its just that white people do not tend to make the grade or do not want to earn lots of money. I'm not suggesting that the City of London or the Medical profession is biased against brits. But a causal look at the papers will show you that the Banks have laid off THOUSANDS of brits and then gave the jobs to India. India then got their staff (as contractors) into the UK and thus, in effect, 1,000s of brits were replaced by 1,000s of Indians.
http://news.efinancialcareers.com/au-en/134803/banks-offshore-as-many-tech-jobs-as-apple-employs/?q=
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/16/hsbc-job-losses-840-it-staff-uk
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/mar/15/rbs-to-cut-450-investment-banking-jobs-uk-two-thirds-offshore-india
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by FredOrJohn
I guess you mean the big paying jobs in IT in the City or jobs like doctors.
If so, I would suggest to you that you are far more likely (by miles and miles and miles)....... I'm not saying colour has anything to do with it, its just that white people do not tend to make the grade or do not want to earn lots of money. I'm not suggesting that the City of London or the Medical profession is biased against brits.
If so, I would suggest to you that you are far more likely (by miles and miles and miles)....... I'm not saying colour has anything to do with it, its just that white people do not tend to make the grade or do not want to earn lots of money. I'm not suggesting that the City of London or the Medical profession is biased against brits.
I think my conversation with the other person was just about the link I posted. I'm not really interested in situations that only apply to a few people TBH, whether that is African employers or Investment Banking, because while that may be true, I don't see how it is relevant to the vast majority of people.
Original post by llys
I think my conversation with the other person was just about the link I posted. I'm not really interested in situations that only apply to a few people TBH, whether that is African employers or Investment Banking, because while that may be true, I don't see how it is relevant to the vast majority of people.
Finance/IT and associated jobs employees about 25% of all UK people.
The Medical profession (NHS) is also the largest employer in the world (well if you exclude Chinese Army etc).
We actually are talking vast majority of UK MIDDLE CLASS jobs .
If significant numbers are being off-shored to India and then reshored (via contracting) , in effect, this is a huge huge bias in favour of asian people.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by FredOrJohn
I guess you mean the big paying jobs in IT in the City or jobs like doctors.
If so, I would suggest to you that you are far more likely (by miles and miles and miles)....... I'm not saying colour has anything to do with it, its just that white people do not tend to make the grade or do not want to earn lots of money. I'm not suggesting that the City of London or the Medical profession is biased against brits. But a causal look at the papers will show you that the Banks have laid off THOUSANDS of brits and then gave the jobs to India. India then got their staff (as contractors) into the UK and thus, in effect, 1,000s of brits were replaced by 1,000s of Indians.
http://news.efinancialcareers.com/au-en/134803/banks-offshore-as-many-tech-jobs-as-apple-employs/?q=
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/16/hsbc-job-losses-840-it-staff-uk
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/mar/15/rbs-to-cut-450-investment-banking-jobs-uk-two-thirds-offshore-india
If so, I would suggest to you that you are far more likely (by miles and miles and miles)....... I'm not saying colour has anything to do with it, its just that white people do not tend to make the grade or do not want to earn lots of money. I'm not suggesting that the City of London or the Medical profession is biased against brits. But a causal look at the papers will show you that the Banks have laid off THOUSANDS of brits and then gave the jobs to India. India then got their staff (as contractors) into the UK and thus, in effect, 1,000s of brits were replaced by 1,000s of Indians.
http://news.efinancialcareers.com/au-en/134803/banks-offshore-as-many-tech-jobs-as-apple-employs/?q=
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/16/hsbc-job-losses-840-it-staff-uk
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/mar/15/rbs-to-cut-450-investment-banking-jobs-uk-two-thirds-offshore-india
Original post by FredOrJohn
Finance/IT and associated jobs employees about 25% of all UK people.
The Medical profession (NHS) is also the largest employer in the world (well if you exclude Chinese Army etc).
We actually are talking vast majority of UK MIDDLE CLASS jobs .
The Medical profession (NHS) is also the largest employer in the world (well if you exclude Chinese Army etc).
We actually are talking vast majority of UK MIDDLE CLASS jobs .
OK... so are you seriously suggesting that the majority of UK MIDDLE CLASS jobs go to Asians? I'm like... what?
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by llys
OK... so are you seriously suggesting that the majority of UK MIDDLE CLASS jobs go to Asians? I'm like... what?
Nope , I am not suggesting that majority of City jobs are done by asian people.
I am suggesting if you see what is happening in the City, significant numbers of NEW finance / IT jobs go to asia (and often re-shored back to UK with asian contractors) - but I do not know if its an actual majority, but if it was I would not be surprised at all.
I am DEFINITELY saying you are far more likely to see an asian person in IT than they make as a percentage of the UK population - its not even close (the contract rate for an IT dev is about £400 a day - so its serious money).
So, I am saying, if there is racism in work, its certainly back fired big time!!!
We DEFINITELY NEED MORE BRITISH PEOPLE IN IT AND FINANCE AND INDEED THE MEDICAL PROFESSION (of all colours).
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by FredOrJohn
I think before 1950 there was hardly any immigrants in the UK (apart from Irish).
Stephen Lawrence was murdered in the 1990s
An institution, I would suggest, might take centuries to develop (eg Institution of marriage).
Thus to call something "institutionalised" sort of implies there is this practice in society that has been in society for, perhaps hundreds of years.
So, is it really possible to have "institutionalised" racism? I would suggest, probably not. You can have racists within institutions in positions of power or racists within youth gangs (who have always "institutionally" picked fights with other youth gangs who look different).
But to say its been here for "centuries" in the UK institutions is probably taking it too far. Disraeli had a very foreign sounding name, looked foreign, but still he got just as many votes as Gladstone - and this was in the nineteenth century!!
There simply have not been enough immigrants to the UK for this "institutionalised" thingie to have developed over the centuries. Immigrants have only really been here in any numbers from the 1950s.
Stephen Lawrence was murdered in the 1990s
An institution, I would suggest, might take centuries to develop (eg Institution of marriage).
Thus to call something "institutionalised" sort of implies there is this practice in society that has been in society for, perhaps hundreds of years.
So, is it really possible to have "institutionalised" racism? I would suggest, probably not. You can have racists within institutions in positions of power or racists within youth gangs (who have always "institutionally" picked fights with other youth gangs who look different).
But to say its been here for "centuries" in the UK institutions is probably taking it too far. Disraeli had a very foreign sounding name, looked foreign, but still he got just as many votes as Gladstone - and this was in the nineteenth century!!
There simply have not been enough immigrants to the UK for this "institutionalised" thingie to have developed over the centuries. Immigrants have only really been here in any numbers from the 1950s.
Institutional racism is a pattern of social institutions — such as governmental organizations, schools, banks, and courts of law — giving negative treatment to a group of people based on their race.
I think time is ultimately irrelevant. Even if it begins today, it would still be institutionalised. Dont you think if institutionalised racism happened since the 50s, we can still dismiss it?
Original post by Mathemagicien
The British did occupy the geographical region which is now called Pakistan. It used to be part of India. Get your facts right.
The "British" never "occupied" anything - there was no real democracy in the UK during 18th and most of 19th century - so a Brit, generally speaking, was no more powerful than an Indian. You mean the "British Elite" occupied and controlled the UK and India.
(edited 7 years ago)
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